WarpDoctor - General Meeting for 2004-05-02
12:02:25 <WalterOS2> This meeting of Warpdoctor is now in session.
<WalterOS2> Hi Doug
<Doug> hi
<WalterOS2> This is the first Sunday of May, so.... *Open Session*
<WalterOS2> Ken, can I ask you a question?
<KenKrchnr> Sure
<WalterOS2> What is the difference between a PCMCIA card and a CardBus card?
<KenKrchnr> PCMCIA *was* 16 bit, Cardbus is 32 bit. But people still refer to the slots as PCMCIA, original cards as PCCard.
<WalterOS2> I can get either a Startech UE1205 or a Startech UE1205CB CardBus card.
<WalterOS2> The former is PCMCIA with an IBM chip.
<WalterOS2> The second has a Realtech 8139 chip.
<KenKrchnr> All (well, almost all) real Cardbus cards require a point enabler under OS/2.
<WalterOS2> But I'm a little concerned it the CardBus thing.
<KenKrchnr> Go for the Realtek - Veit actually has a driver for the 8139 based cards to work with ss.
<WalterOS2> And I'm jittery after my experience with the Intel CardBus (II) card.
<WalterOS2> Even if the Realtech is CardBus?
<KenKrchnr> Yes, that was the "(almost all)" portion of the remark.
<WalterOS2> OK, thanks! Both cards are dongle-less. :-)
<WalterOS2> And both support 100 FD.
<WalterOS2> :-)
<KenKrchnr> I think the most I got out of cardbus was about 3 -4 mbs
<Doug> aren't all OS/2 device drivers 16 bit?
<KenKrchnr> There are a few 32 bit now, but most are still 16 bit.
<NielsJ> How do you know if a driver is 16 bit or 32 bit?
<KenKrchnr> You need to use something like theseus to see the memory model used.
<NielsJ> Where do I find theseus?
<KenKrchnr> I think it's still on Hobbes, hold on -
<NielsJ> Sorry, I should have search before asking. Google gives some links.
<KenKrchnr> http://hobbes.nmsu.edu/cgi-bin/h-browse?sh=1&dir=/pub/os2/util/memory
<Doug> Ken - do you know of any specific drivers that are 32 bit? (I am just curious)
<KenKrchnr> I seem to remember that the Adaptec U160 drivers switched to 32 bit.
<Doug> I was wondering if the 32 bit stuff would be in SCSI.
<NielsJ> Thanks, Ken. I found version 4.001 on Warpupdates. It points to service.boulder.ibm.com.
<WalterOS2> Ken: Why are CB units so slow?
<Doug> I seem to remember something about the PowerPC version of OS/2 was going to change device drivers to 32 bit, but I don't think much of that technology ever transferred
<WalterOS2> CB=CardBus
<KenKrchnr> As Doug said, most OS/2 drivers are still 16bit
<Doug> Are window's drivers 32 bit, or 16 bit?
<KenKrchnr> I can't remember the limit on CB, but PCCard limit was about 2mb
<KenKrchnr> Most windows drivers are now 32 bit.
<WalterOS2> Ken: StarTech *claims* the UE1205CB is 32-bit. http://www.startech.com/ststore/itemdetail.cfm?tab=b&ProductID=UE1205CB&topbar=topbara.htm
<WalterOS2> That's the one with a RealTek 8139.
<Doug> Ken - you mean the "bus" used for PCCard is limited to 2 MBIT/sec transfer rates?
<WalterOS2> StarTech also *claims* that unit is compatible with OS/2 Warp.
<WalterOS2> Though they don't provide OS/2 drivers. :-(
<KenKrchnr> Doug, yes, that was the limit.
<WalterOS2> Ouch. I guess that's the real reason notebooks communication is so slow!
<Doug> I didn't know that. So a 100Mbit ethernet card is pretty much wasted on a PCMICIA slot?
<KenKrchnr> Walter, the card will work with Veits driver, but it is probably still going to get throttled back to 16 bit transfers.
<WalterOS2> I understand.
<KenKrchnr> Doug, painfully so. A 16 bit PCCard will top out about 2mbs.
<KenKrchnr> On my t20 I ran all 3 at times. PCCard got 1 - 1.8. Cardbus got 3 - 4. PCI got 8 - 9.
<Doug> So the communication difference for laptops that noticably slower than 100mb desktops? I have a hard time distingushing the speed between 10mb and 100mb NIC cards
<Doug> on desktop machines
<Doug> But then again I am not usually shuffling large files back and forth
<KenKrchnr> With a MiniPCI nic, there is no real difference.
<NielsJ> At work at have a docking station for my TP600. The docking station has the FastEthernet Adapter unit. And I really noticed the increase in speed when switching from the 3Com PCMCIA card.
<Doug> I am not a laptop user so I keep forgetting that laptops have different issues than desktops
<Doug> I bought a NEC Ultralight (I am showing my age here) in 1989 and used it about 3 or 4 times on business trips. I still have it but it was a $2600 mistake purchase for me.
<KenKrchnr> I've used mostly laptops for the past 8 - 10 years. They've definitely come a long way during that time.
<Doug> They look very capable now, and if I traveled alot I would probably get one. But I try to resist purchasing one until my traveling really would justify it.
<KenKrchnr> I see people talking about Warp CP/eCS being less stable than Warp 3, but for me the combination of the IBM T40 and eCS has been the best ever.
<Doug> (Probably leftover guilt about the NEC)
<KenKrchnr> I have had to reboot this machine only 2 times since October. Even with several suspend/resume cycles a day.
<Doug> That is truly amazing!
<Doug> I wonder how many people, or corporations, are still using Warp 3?
<KenKrchnr> I would guess quite a few, some who know it, and some who just use terminals at work without knowing what they're using.
<KenKrchnr> My local bank just got bought out, they are now moving from OS/2 to win. The people there are complaining about the system problems they thought were gone.
<KenKrchnr> About 2 years ago they had planned to switch, but they had so many problems the new win stuff got pulled out and they went back to OS/2. Now the new owner is win only :-(
<wdl> That seems to be conmmon. Complaining, that is. My bank too.
<NielsJ> Has anyone had a looki at the Redbook on moving from OS/2 to Linux on the desktop?
<wdl> They're *talking* (only) 'bout Linux.
<Doug> It amazes me that companies would spend money to switch from something that works (no matter what it is), to something different. It is like replacing the siding on your house just because it is old.
<wdl> Niels: Yes. Not very helpful - for me anyway.
<KenKrchnr> I have no intention to move from OS/2, so I haven't looked at it ;-)
<NielsJ> I agree, the Redbook is not helpful for a single user, but I find it quite interesting that the document could easily be modified to moving from Windows to Linux on the desktop.
<wdl> Ken: Nor I, but I thought to read up on "The Issues".
<wdl> NielsJ: *I* think that's *really* why IBM wrote it! ;-)
<Doug> It will interesting to see if Linux ever becomes a major playing at the desktop. My feeling is that it will not.
<KenKrchnr> Doug, one of the big problems for the banks now is that IBM never upgraded OS/2 bank apps to use the new "secure" eft and other net stuff. That means the banks either keep a couple of win units around to talk to the other banks, or move completely.
<wdl> Ken: Are the European banks thinking differently? My feeling's "Yes, they are".
<Doug> I don't know much about banking, but I thought all the banking stuff would be on mainframes.
<wdl> Doug: Banking, insurance, travel/*schedule*-related, ...
<KenKrchnr> The EU banks are going to be facing the same problem. The difference there may be that some will fund new apps to fill that void.
<Doug> Years ago they used to drive tapes around when doing electronic deposits.
<KenKrchnr> Yes, most stuff is on the mainframes, but pc apps still talk to the mainframes.
<wdl> Ken: "fund new apps" -- haven't they been doing that alread> TwoOsTwo, etc??
<NielsJ> I am not sure the European banks are different, but there seems to be a big interest in Java. My netbanking application is a Java applet downloaded from the banks machine.
<KenKrchnr> I could be wrong, but I doubt they would run such mission critical tasks under an emulator. But maybe.
<wdl> Certainly non-US institutions have incentives to stay away from Win-anything.
<Doug> I think that at one time that was OS/2 strength - interfacing the PC to the mainframe.
<wdl> Various governments prohibiting use thereof in government work/office...
<Doug> I think Linux will make big inroads into the server market, but I don't think it will ever be big in the desktop market.
<KenKrchnr> Yes, that was always a big selling point for IBM. And why OS/2 originally came with several mainframe access terminal emulators.
<Doug> Mainly bacause of the difficulty of selling commercial applications to the Linux community.
<wdl> Doug: "...ebver be big..." == famous last words?
<wdl> "ebver" = "never". Argh.
<Doug> Yes - I may be "eating my words", but unless things change, I don't see a bunch of companies marketing commercial applications (non-enterprise) for Linux.
<Doug> Too hard to compete with free stuff, and the community seems to be so anti-commercial
<wdl> ...Times; they are a'changing...
<wdl> OpenSource *is* a viable business model.
<Doug> Not for the people making the software - only for the people supporting the software.
<KenKrchnr> Linux needs to show it can support such apps, business needs support, they aren't going to look for free stuff. The existing user base may be looking for the free lunch, but that won't be the business model.
<wdl> Yes. But *sometimes* they're the same people. ;-)
<wdl> Humph. Auto dealers sell cars cheap. Make their money off "support" = maintenance/repair/parts.
<NielsJ> Yes, if it is done correctly. I believe the model MySQL AB is using is one that we will see more off.
<wdl> Computers/software can be the same way - methinks.
<Doug> Oh auto dealers make LOTS of money selling cars. But the real comparison here is the auto manufactors.
<Doug> It is the manufactors that must make the money for the auto industry to survive. The auto manufactors = software developers
<KenKrchnr> Linux's biggest problem in gaining business acceptance is the simple fact that *most* ceo/cfo types don't know much (sic) about computers and systems. But they've all heard of win and bill.
<Doug> I agree that support companies (=auto dealers) can survive on the free software model.
<Doug> Even if a business decides to switch to Linux, the computer that the workers use at home will still be Windows.
<Doug> That will also be a big factor in impeding the switch over.
<wdl> Doug: I sense a small but growing reluctance for home users to continue the Gates-ian...
<wdl> ...continued costly always-upgrade-everything cycle.
<KenKrchnr> As IBM continues to transform itself into a *services* provider it can begin to change that attitude. These guys have heard of IBM, and if they're support includes Linux it can make a difference.
<wdl> My wife, for instance. ;-)
<KenKrchnr> Most home users have no choice. You get a new box, win is already on it.
<Doug> I think the biggest impediment for the average home user not using Windows, is that Windows is preloaded. If the operating system cannot be purchased preloaded on a machine, the average home user is stuck
<Doug> I agree.
<Doug> My father is not capable of installing a new OS
<wdl> Ah, yes. But your old peripherals no longer work...
<Doug> In fact, he wasn't capable of keeping OS/2 running without me being there to help out with basic questions.
<WalterOS2> Ken: Thanks big-time for the tip. I just ordered the Startech UE1205CB for a really good price. Got *exactly* what I wanted and save a bunch of money too!
<WalterOS2> save=saved
<Doug> Bill - that is an excellent point. It will be interesting to see if there is a growing backlash against the constent upgrade/ buy new stuff requirement/cycle
<wdl> Doug: My wife's in a similar position. But she's going to *have* to get new software shortly...
<wdl> ...and that *will* mean a new machine...
<wdl> ...etc etc etc... ...
<WalterOS2> Cooperators is one of the biggest insurance companies in Canada, and they've been using OS/2 for years I guess, but in a couple of months, IBM's going to cut off their support. So they're going to windows. :-(
<Doug> the business model of constantly sucking money out of computer users may end up backfiring at some point.
<wdl> Doug: IMHO - it already has.
<Doug> but on the other hand - the lack of that busines model/requirment in OS/2 world has hurt OS/2 vendors.
<Doug> I am still using software that I purchased 10 years ago - because it works and it does what I need.
<WalterOS2> Alex Taylor has been supporting them, and he's not too thrilled about it.
<Doug> That is good for me, but tough for the company.
<wdl> Doug: I suspect that will slowly change.
<wdl> ...NO-one *really* likes Winxx so much.
<wdl> And they've slowly been losing market share of this/that.
<Doug> Walter - I thought IBM was supporting OS/2 until 2006.
<wdl> Doug: Some say for even longer...
<Doug> Sounds like the decision is really a political/personality decision. As it seems so many are in the corporate world.
<NielsJ> Doug: Rumors from Warpstock 2003 said some company had put money on the table for support until 2017.
<NielsJ> or thereabout.
<wdl> Yes. That came from - er - what's-his-name... The IBM middle-manager.
<wdl> Witha wink-and-a-nudge, but I heard him say it!
<Doug> I am repeating myself, but if IBM still sells DOS, I have a hard time believing they will completely abandon OS/2 in the immediatel future.
<wdl> Doug: Pretty good DOS, too.
<WalterOS2> Doug: All I know is what Alex told me. Maybe they're changing to give themselves some lead time. (?)
<Doug> I think their web site says that there are 22 million DOS users world wide.
<Doug> Walter - I have seen all sorts of excuses used to justify purchase decisions. Especially the Y2K stuff.
<WalterOS2> If you haven't already seen it, be sure to read http://www.os2irc.org/os2flurishesDespiteLou.html
<WalterOS2> That gives an insight into what's really going on.
<wdl> Walter: Saw it. It's a screed, really. Says little of substance.
<wdl> ...I'm not sure about "really going on."
<NielsJ> Walter: For some reason I cannot access www.os2irc.org.
<WalterOS2> Maybe, but I didn't realize that terminating OS/2 was Lou Gerstner's pet project.
<Doug> I am reading it now. But the yellow font is REALLY difficult for me to read.
<wdl> NielsJ: It was down late last night. Mmm, ...early morning.
<wdl> Walter "pet project" = Well, *everybody* know that... ,smirk>
<WalterOS2> Doug: Check your browser settings. On mine it's blue and white with a short bit of "turquoise".
<WalterOS2> wdl: *everybody* does that mean I'm nobody? :-)
<wdl> Hah! yet another blow against using "web-safe" colors in HTML?
<WalterOS2> turquoise=cyan
<Doug> its is mostly blue and black - the serenity link/name is in yellow.
<wdl> Walter: 'Course not. Just maybe you've not been reading in the right places. Newsgroups, etc.??
<Doug> The article points out something that I was thought was a problem with OS/2 marketing - and the OS/2 world.
<WalterOS2> Hi Mark
<NielsJ> All I get from www.os2irc.org is a white page.
<MADnoWire> hello Walter.
<Doug> The expectation always seemed to be that OS/2 had to overtake Windows and have a larger installed base.
<MADnoWire> Sorry for being so late but I had some things to do for my wife before the rains come.
<wdl> NielsJ: Do "show page". See if it's really an empty HTML.
<Doug> Which wasn't very likely. But setting up that expectation meant that everyone would view the lack of achieving it as a failure of OS/2
<wdl> ...if so, your ISP may be blocking it - for some reason.
<WalterOS2> Mark: Don't worry about it. The first meeting of every month is an open session.
<NielsJ> Message: Your browser does not support frames.
<WalterOS2> Good old IBM Web Browser. :-)
<wdl> NielsJ: Hunh.
<WalterOS2> Still my favourite browser.
<NielsJ> I am using Mozilla 1.5.
<WalterOS2> IBM Web Browser <> Mozilla.
<MADnoWire> works OK with 1.7 latest trunk. But its awlfully busy.
<wdl> Moz 1.5 does support frames. So does 1.6, which I use.
<MADnoWire> They are running that server on a 386SX-16
<WalterOS2> They may have the same original code base, but I have consistently found that IWB is more reliable and versatile than the rest.
<WalterOS2> I saw that.
<WalterOS2> Amazing!
<MADnoWire> Yes, I'm finding a lot of hangs with 1.7 with especially busy pages. Though I think it may be Java related
<wdl> Anyone "up" for a *short* fling with eCS install problems? New info here.
<WalterOS2> Go ahead. :-)
<wdl> I installed eCS 1.1 on a "spare" machine.
<WalterOS2> Maybe Mark knows something we don't. :-)
<wdl> Went in painlessly, for the most part.
<wdl> Zipped it up; transferred to a same-letter partition on *this* machine.
<wdl> Did CRCs on source partition, and my partition.
<wdl> Booting fails - still - part-way through.
<wdl> At the same place as always, it seems.
<wdl> ...

<WalterOS2> That's a real puzzle.
<wdl> Ideas? It seems it really *is* harware-related...
<WalterOS2> I gather the newsgroups have been no help, either...
* MADnoWire wishes he could help Bill but he just never had such problems.
<WalterOS2> wdl: Sounds like it.
<wdl> Walter: I've started conversations with several ng people. No. No help.
<WalterOS2> My experience has been that when a problem takes that long to resolve, a hardware problem is lurking in the background somewhere.
<wdl> Question though: Does eCS install support the "Copyfromfloppy" instruction in the boot floppy config.sys?
<MADnoWire> wdl: Where does it fail?
<wdl> Like the CPs do?
<KenKrchnr> Does it still give the "xx not found" messages?
<wdl> Mark: Gets to the "e-ball" splash screen.
<KenKrchnr> Yes, copyfromfloppy works
<wdl> Lights wink for awhile.
<wdl> Then stall....
<wdl> Trying to short-circuit by hitting boot-blob
<wdl> also fails, in that I get the choices
<MADnoWire> Have you tried Alt-F5 at the bott blob?
<wdl> screen, but all the choices freeze the machine.
<MADnoWire> ah, bott s/b boot
<wdl> Matrk: answer is yes. Result is nothing works...
<wdl> "Matrk" = "Mark"
<MADnoWire> bummer. IS this during the actual install?
<wdl> For the hell-of-it, I've put the zipped-up partition *back* into the spare machine.
<jep> Have you tried to remove support for networking? (by rem-ming out a line or two)
<wdl> Sort of a hardware "Koch's Poastulates" test.
<wdl> Re-install that way yields a just-fine eCS.
<WalterOS2> line or two? Should be 15-20! <g>
<wdl> All: I've remmed everything I can think of.
<MADnoWire> so the same installation wokrs on a different machine?
<WalterOS2> Have you tried installing on that machine with a different HD?
<jep> I've got a mahcine here that halts during boot when I've installed the nic-driver.
<wdl> I believe my total setup just is to far-out for eCS to handle.
<wdl> Walter: different.. On all three of my HDDs. All = same failure.
<WalterOS2> Hmm.
<WalterOS2> Have you emailed Kim?
<wdl> Problem? = I have HDD drive letters D-Q. Includes the R and S that eCS likes to play with.
<WalterOS2> If you're right about your setup being too far out, then you should let Kim know.
<KenKrchnr> Is it stopping after showing those error msgs you used to get, or before that point once you copied the partition?
<wdl> Walter: Hm. OK; I'll try that. Later.
* MADnoWire used to have to remove his sound and SCSI card when installing Warp4 on a Gateway 486DX-33 machine.
<wdl> Ken: Before that point.
<KenKrchnr> Then we have a different failure mode?
<wdl> And I've removed ebvery non-essential peripheral: ZIP-drive, external SCSI, CF card-reader --- the works.
<wdl> Still no-go.
<KenKrchnr> If you alt-f2 does it show where it stops?
<wdl> Ken: No.
<KenKrchnr> Does it show *any* drivers being loaded?
<wdl> Ken: It doesn't reach the point of showing anything. Just the splash screen - then stall.
<KenKrchnr> Well, that's different than it was before anyway :-)
<KenKrchnr> How much memory in that machine?
<wdl> Ken: Yes, but "before" was *installing* -- and then only from floppies.
<wdl> Ken: memory = 256Mb
<wdl> Ken: and MCP-2 is on this machine! Works fine.
<wdl> In fact, *everything* on this machine works **just fine** -- *except* eCS.
<KenKrchnr> Can you copy os2boot os2ldr and the kernal from the mcp2 partition and see if it boots?
<wdl> This is my first-ever (sorta) failure....
<wdl> Ken: Tried that. No change.
<MADnoWire> What ideo driver are you using?
<MADnoWire> errr video driver?
<wdl> Mark: video = SNAP = latest but one.
<WalterOS2> Which video card?
<MADnoWire> On ecs or MCP2?
<wdl> Walter: wait one...
<MADnoWire> HAve you reset the eCS to VGA?
<wdl> Walter: Video: Matrox MGA-G400 "Millenium" w/ 32Mb RAM
<wdl> Mark: Yes. No change.
<wdl> Ken: My Q re "copyfrom floppy" was meant to ask about the eCS-specific things. Will *they* "copyfrom..."??
<KenKrchnr> You mean during th einstall?
<wdl> I've also copied the entire CD to a spare partition, and tried installing from there...
<wdl> Ken: yes.
<wdl> ... with the same failure(s).
<WalterOS2> This indeed a mystery.
<wdl> I've CRC's the whole damn CD *and* the HDD copy. They're equal.
<KenKrchnr> As far as I know there is a slight bug in there that causes it not to copy some of the stuff.
<WalterOS2> It's beginning to sound like low-level hardware: eg. processor, mobo, cmos. :-(
<wdl> Ken: "slight bug"? Meaning, like, XCOPY? If so, I know...
<wdl> ...and have copied it with "other means" - also.
<wdl> Walter. Yes. BUT... MCP-2 made it!!!
<wdl> I'm using MCP-2 as we speak.
<jep> Can you install eCS on another machine (or is the CD damaged)?
<wdl> jep: Starting lines were about successfully installing on a spare machine...
<wdl> ...the CD seems OK.
<jep> wdl: So the "spare parts" in the spare machine doesn't work then :-P
<wdl> jep: meaning?
<jep> as mentioned above...hardware problems, or...?
<wdl> jep: Well, hardware differences certainly. There are a LOT.
<wdl> I've been wondering about BIOS settings, but know too little to spot something that might have an effect.
<wdl> The real kicker is that MCP-2 is on the same machine, and works fine.
<jep> What BIOS do you use?
<wdl> jep:BIOS: Award 4.51 PG
<MADodel> wdl: With the same base drivers? video, IDE, sound, etc
<KenKrchnr> Have you tried checking the lvm files to see which is newer?
<jep> wdl: same as mine here then
<wdl> Mark: Likely not.
<wdl> Ken: I've *replaced the LVMs, from divers sources. No go.
<WalterOS2>
<MADodel> HAve you tried copying the config.sys from the working volume to the eCS one?
<wdl> Mark: I've not installed any drivers in *either* install other than what came with eCS.
<wdl> Mark. Yes. Same stall. Same place.
<wdl> Bill heaves a mighty sigh...
<wdl> Bill's head hurts too. Bashing it against the same thing all the time.
<KenKrchnr> OK Bill, since your head already hurts - have you tried copying the entire os2 directory from mcp2 to the ecs partition?
<MADodel> Something is conflicting somewhere. I'd try synching the driver versions and the config.sys. Before that I'd try switching to real VGA.
<wdl> Ken: Nooooo... What would you expect that to do?
<wdl> Mark: Already stated - tried switching to VGA. NO go.
<MADodel> real VGA or GRADDVGA?
<KenKrchnr> ecs 1.1 is mcp2 + some fixes. If the lvm stuff is the problem you may get around it that way. The other thing I can think of offhand is to rewrite the mbr of the ecs partition with the mcp2 mbr.
<wdl> Mark: Hm. Whatever the boot-blob "choices" screen offers.
<WalterOS2> Yes - I have had instances where GraddVGA didn't work but real VGA did.
<wdl> Hmmmmmmm.
<MADodel> can you boot to a command prompt off of ALt-F1?
<wdl> Ken: "rewrite the mbr". I could. Why would that work?
<wdl> Mark: command prompt = no. Freeze on attempt.
<MADodel> now that is weird.
<KenKrchnr> You're failing before drivers load. Code loaded by that point is from mbr, os2boot, os2ldr and maybe into the kernal.
<wdl> Ken: "Failing before..." Yes. --- So later I'll try changing the mbr. Thanks for that thought.
<KenKrchnr> It could also be a failure in the minihpfs loader, but I can't remember where in the load process that one stops.
<wdl> Ken I *wondered* about that...
<wdl> How would I find it's load process/characteristics???
<wdl> Well, this's taken a lot of others' time. I've a few ideas now. Thanks all.
<KenKrchnr> It should be part of the os2ldr code. That was why I asked about you copying that from the mcp2 partition. It may have part of its code in the mbr tho'.
<wdl> I can stick around awhile; TTW's not around. <g>
<wdl> Ken: Could I use DFSee to fix the mbr? Replace/rebuild it?
<MADodel> Christian has the latest newsletter up now.
<WalterOS2> wdl: I think so, but to replace the mbr, I've found that LVM is simpler.
<wdl> Walter: OK; I'll think on that.
<WalterOS2> LVM NEWMBR:X
<wdl> Got it.
<WalterOS2> X starts at 1, not at 0.
<WalterOS2> e.g. 1-4
<wdl> AH-ha. Thanks.
<KenKrchnr> And try to lvm it from the mcp2 partition to overwrite the one that may be causing the problem.
<KenKrchnr> Time to go, have a good day all.
<wdl> Gotchas here; gotchas there; everywhere a gotcha...
<wdl> Bye Ken, and Thanks.
<WalterOS2> Another tip: LVMGUI has got at least one bug in it.
<WalterOS2> It managed to wipe my hard drive. :-(
<WalterOS2> LVM is safer for modifying your partition info.
<wdl> Walter: Hoo-boy! I know of one bug. Which one do you know?
<wdl> Apart from wiping drives? ;(
<jep> Anyone asked Mr Van Wijk and C. Graham to create a better LVM GUI together?
<WalterOS2> I'm not sure, but I described what I had done to Jan, and he said that a nasy bug.
<wdl> Haven't seen such discussion.
<WalterOS2> Jan's working on.
<WalterOS2> on it.
<wdl> ...About creating an LVMGUI.
* jep :-)
<WalterOS2> Almost every release of DFS contains a few more features found in LVM.
<WalterOS2> As well as several that aren't. :-)
* jep wish that they can both create it as their software would complement each other very good!
<wdl> He's a positive wonder! Now, if he's only make a Linux<->HPFS driver/filter/?? ...
<WalterOS2> Well, he is starting to add some Linux features...
<wdl> ...For Debian Linux, anyway <smirk>
<WalterOS2> Here's another tip that Jan gave me.
<WalterOS2> If LVM or LVMGUI shows that your partitions have errors, then start LVM.
<WalterOS2> Once LVM is up, save the partitions (F3) without making changes.
<WalterOS2> Apparently LVM will try to correct any errors it finds.
<WalterOS2> :-)
<WalterOS2> It's worked for me several times.
<wdl> Hm. Interesting. A "keeper".
<WalterOS2> It's even made the dreaded "Your partition may be corrupt" message go away.
<WalterOS2> :-)
<WalterOS2> er.. partition table.
<WalterOS2> Now I just use LVMGUI for looking at my partition table info--not for changing anything.
<wdl> Hunh. Haven't seen that in _years_. <wide grin> & crossed fingers.
<WalterOS2> I use LVM to make any changes.
<wdl> Ever since finding the MCP-1 vs MCP-2 LVM discrepancy(ies), I've used DFSee - after it became truly "mature".
<WalterOS2> I've got a couple of very large drives, that for some reason require that any bootable partitions be contained in the area under 1024 cylinders.
<WalterOS2> Until I figured out what was going on, I got several such error messages.
<wdl> You're using all the "large drive" fixes? Dani's/kernel/... ?
<WalterOS2> Yep.
<wdl> What's a "very large" drive to you? Above 60Gb?
<WalterOS2> LVM got me out of all those error messages without corrupting anything.
<WalterOS2> All but one, that is. :-)
<WalterOS2> >=200 MB
<WalterOS2> er..GB
<WalterOS2> :-)
<wdl> Whew! I'm safe. <g>
<WalterOS2> I want to use them for backing up my system.
<WalterOS2> Well, I should go.
<wdl> Walter: Thanks for your tips/advice/help...
<WalterOS2> Can't wait to get my StarTech CardBus adapter. <g>
<WalterOS2> I'm really glad Ken gave me that tip.
<wdl> I'll stay another minute or two, then I'm gone too.
14:34:43 [ WalterOS2 logs off = implicit "meeting adjourned" ]