WarpDoctor - General Meeting for 2004-04-04
12:18:17 <walteros2> This meeting of WD is now in session. <====Time approximate=====
<walteros2> I have an announcement to make.
<walteros2> Doug has been promoted to co-chairman of WarpDoctor.
<walteros2> That means he and I will be leading these sessions as a team.
<Doug> Sorta like tag-team wrestling
<walteros2> It also means he will have to get here on time from now on. <G>
<Doug> ah-oh
<walteros2> :-)
<walteros2> Unfortunately, I did really put up last weeks agenda.
<walteros2> The was partly intentional, since not to much has changed since last week AIR
<walteros2> AIR=as I recall (aka AIRC)
<walteros2> The agenda, such as it is, is at http://www.warpdoctor.org/agendas/warpdoc_2004-04-04.html
<walteros2> However, since this is the first meeting of the month, we can have an open discussion if you like.
<Doug> oh - lets do open discussion
<Doug> I'm open to that
<walteros2> hehe
<walteros2> BTW, my neurologist started me on a new medication on Monday, and so far the results are very encouraging.
<Doug> Good
<walteros2> Warpstock 2004 here I come! (I hope)
<Doug> Great - I think you will have a great time in Denver
<walteros2> I haven't even gotten up to the regular dosage yet.
<walteros2> I'm so looking forward to meeting some of you there.
<Doug> Bill - you are planning on coming to Warpstock aren't you
<wdl> Doug: Yup.
<Doug> Great!
<Doug> Kris - where do you live?
<Doug> Has Kris or Niel ever been to Warpstock?
<Kris> I am living in Gent, rather far away I'm afraid
<NielsJ> Yes, I was at the greatest one ever: Toronto 2001!
<Doug> That was a great one.
<NielsJ> The excuse was a family visit.
<Doug> I am hoping that this year's will be even better. The brochure is at http://www.warpstock.org/2004/brochure.pdf
<Doug> Kris - where is Gent?
<Kris> Gent is in-between The Netherlands and France :-)
<walteros2> xx
<Doug> Niels - which country is DK?
<Kris> Danmark is DK
<walteros2> Denmark
<Kris> Denmark, right.
<NielsJ> I am too slow tonight!
<walteros2> InJoy is done by a group in Denmark. That's one reason I knew.
<NielsJ> Yes, and Netop the re-mote connection software.
<Doug> I am trying to get Bjarne Jensen to come over - but he has declined (so far)
<Doug> I understand from a friend of mine that airfare is pretty cheap right now.
<Doug> I think he said that he is flying to copenhagen next month for $800 round trip
<NielsJ> Denver is not cheap, but New York is arond US 400 at this time.
<Doug> (from Denver)
<Doug> How much extra is it to get to Denver?
<Doug> I have seen fares between Washington DC and Denver as low as $165
<walteros2> Doug: we considered driving down to Buffalo, and taking a plane from there.
<MADodel> Doug: Is that one-way?
<walteros2> Would you believe there are flights between Buffalo and Denver?
<Doug> Round trip!
<walteros2> You have to change planes in Detroit or Atlanta or somewhere.
<Doug> I priced that because of my daughter was going on a school trip to DC
<walteros2> That's a long school trip!
<Doug> Yes - it was a week long trip to tour DC and see a play in New Yokr
<Doug> York
<walteros2> that should have NO FLIGHTS.
<walteros2> should have been.
<walteros2> My typing today is terrible!
<Doug> When my sewer backed up into the basement a couple of weeks ago that killed the trip - because of finances
<NielsJ> Usually, if you make a round-trip ticket and extra distination US is not extra cost. Last fall I went from Copenhagen via Paris and Atlanta to Baton Rouge and back via Cincinatti for the price of a roundtrip to Atlanta.
<Doug> I am hoping that we can get some europeans to come this year
<NielsJ> I have to leave. Someone has booked the computer for game playing in Win95. And since next week is Easter Sunday, and we have a large family gathering, I properly won't be back until two weeks from today.
<Doug> Ok
<Doug> Walter - I just found a flight from Buffalo NY to Denver CO for $290 (leaves Oct 20 - returns Oct 24)
<Doug> Walter - how long of drive is it from your place to buffalo?
<walteros2> About 2 1/2 hours.
<walteros2> We've been told that airport is much smaller and less stressful than Toronto's.
<walteros2> We may drive to Detroit instead, from which you can get a non-stop flight.
<Doug> how far is Detroit?
<Doug> I see Detroit to Denver for $303 round trip (Oct 20 - Oct 24)
<walteros2> Sorry about that: my browser just shutdown for no reason. :-(
<walteros2> Doug: I saw you mentioned a flight from Buffalo to Denver. Could you repeat the information please?
<Doug> Buffalo to Denver for $290 - Leaves Oct 20, returns Oct 24
<Doug> Detroit to Denver for $303, same departure and return dates
<walteros2> That's a good price. Is the flight direct or do you have to change planes?
<walteros2> The Buffalo-Denver one, I mean.
<Doug> It doesn't say - and with hotwire you won't know until you book the flight
<walteros2> :-(
<Doug> Let me see if I can find one that has no connections for sure
<walteros2> Thanks!
<walteros2> The Toronto airport isn't too bad in itself, compared to some of the larger US airports.
<walteros2> It's just very big and busy; and parking. is hard to find and expensive.
<MADodel> April VOICE Newsletter is now up.
<walteros2> Thanks, Mark
<walteros2> Bill: Was Ken able to help you get eCS running?
<Doug> Ooo - this is even better. Detroit to Denver,non-stop, for $197
<walteros2> I've seen that one.
<walteros2> I wonder if the deal is so good because they expect you to bring your own oxygen or something!
<Doug> You probably have to bring your own fet fuel
<Doug> jet fuel
<walteros2> LOL
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<wdl> logging again.
<wdl> Aargh!!!
<walteros2> Doug: we are planning on getting passports just to be safe.
<walteros2> Bill: Power problems again?
<Doug> I think the new policy is just to shoot everyone from non-friendly countries. Can't be too safe you know
<walteros2> LOL
<wdl> Walter: Yes. Our general area has experienced a spate of building/rebuilding.
<wdl> Walter: *huge* houses; vastly increased power draw. Inadequate xmission facilities.
<wdl> Walter: etc etc etc
<wdl> Walter: hence -- outages big and small. Our neighborhood group is taking it up with the State power commission... ;-)
<walteros2> x
<walteros2> It looks like a lot of ISP's kill chat clients after 4 minutes of non-typing.
<walteros2> Bill: I'm glad to hear that.
<walteros2> Unfortunately, that will probably mean your taxes and or utility rates will go up.
<wdl> Walter: Thanks...
<wdl> Uh. Thanks, I think...
<Doug> Bill - there are areas here that experience power outages of 1-4 days at a time. Turns out the utilitiy company neglected to invest in maintenace of the grid
<Doug> Apparently dereguation was coming and they didn't want to invest only to be deregulated
<wdl> Doug: Same here. But PG&E was *prevented* by the State from doing anything of the sort!!!
<walteros2> I can see the dilemma.
<wdl> "sort" = maintenance, plant construction, etc etc
<Doug> our public utility commission here recently took up that problem. Whether it will get solved is another matter.
<Doug> Unfortunately - California is something of the example of how not to handle power regulation.
<walteros2> Recently a new gov't closed nearly all of our nuclear power plants, which have a very good track record.
<wdl> Doug: Oh too true!!!
<Doug> And I have to admit, that it was a Colorado congressman that was leading the charge for electric deregulation before he finally left congress.
<walteros2> They're built with a different technology than the one that took 3-mile Island out.
<Doug> There are some areas of the US that are heavely dependent on nuclear power - Florida being one.
<walteros2> To compensate, they're running dirty coal-burning plants, which is causing real polution problems AND driving up the power costs.
<Doug> I think France uses alot of nuclear power also.
<wdl> Damn gummit!!
<walteros2> There are week during the summer with sunny weather on which you can barely seen the sun for the smog.
<wdl> I was "in" the nuclear racket, tangentially, years ago. My impression is that *now*
<walteros2> Bill: what happened?
<wdl> ...the quality of plant personnel isn't what it ought to be.
<wdl> ...The *plants* aren't so much at fault.
<wdl> Walter: Did something happen??
* MADodel usedto live within 5 miles of 3 mile island. But we didn't move there until 1989
<walteros2> I thought by your expletive that somethat had.
<walteros2> That's all.
<Doug> My dad worked in the industry for years, and I have a very good friend that is in charge of generation planning at a utility in Phoenix
<wdl> Walter: Ah. That was meant to be "Damn guvmnt", as in black helicopters and all that... ;-)
<walteros2> Doug: What you do say we get back to something related to Warpdoctor? :-)
<Doug> ok - sorry
<walteros2> wdl: Oh
<walteros2> That's OK.
<Doug> Heres a question for Ken - only slightly off the subject.
<Doug> Ken - do you think posting Warpstock past presentations on VOICE2 will significantly increase traffic to the site?
<MADodel> We already did post the 2003 presentations.
<walteros2> Bill: I asked you earlier if Ken got your eCS running, and if you answered I didn't see the answer, which is quite possible thanks to this Java client.
<wdl> Walter: No. He said he'd look at the info I gave him -- no wisdom yet. ;-)
<walteros2> OK, thx.
<wdl> Walter: It's a *totallly* arcane thing. I'm beginning to believe...
<Doug> What is Bills' problem?
<wdl> ...I'm the only one in the whole damn' world who can't install it.
<Doug> Seems that Kris was having a problem with networking also.
<walteros2> Well, those things still have to be dealt with. :-)
<Doug> What happens Bill
<wdl> Doug: I can't even get to the *installer* !!!
<Doug> ? Or should I say - what doesn't happen?
<wdl> Doug: Best situation so far: I get as far as ...
<Doug> Do you get the very first screen where you input your install options
<wdl> ...a rudimentary PM window (low res), with an unhelpful error message...
<wdl> "install options" - yes.
<Doug> what video are you using during the install - both card and resolution options?
<Kris> Bill: what's exactly that unhelpfull error message?
<Kris> unhelpful
<wdl> Doug: Everything reasonable has been tried. Not the problem. It loses where the CD-ROM is.
<wdl> Kris: "...[something] can't find...[xxx]"
<Doug> What kind of CD Rom setup do you have?
<wdl> Oh lordy. # 60Gb HDDs; CD-ROM is "slave" on 2nd circuit.
<wdl> EVERY other OS installs slick as a whistle. Has always - for years.
<wdl> ONLY eCS fails to install.
<Kris> Bill: once in memory, the installer can't trace your CD station anymore...
<wdl> Kris: yes! It can't, it seems.
<Doug> Actually I would think that with LVM that would be more possible than with FDISK. With LVM you can fix the drive letter so that when you add the drives later on the install drive letter doesn't change.
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<wdl> This is getting *very* tiresome.....
<wdl> I use LVM. The drive letter *is* fixed.
<Kris> Doug: this in only good for installing Windy. On every thing else it opens more problems.
<wdl> By happenstance it's "S". And Maaaaybe that's part of the problem... ???
<walteros2> It is if you have a hard disk partition also called "S:"
<Doug> Windy?
<wdl> Kris: "more problems" -- but as of this year ;) -- only with eCS.
<walteros2> You also can't have a hard disk partition called "T:"
<Kris> Doug: indeed Windy.
<wdl> Walter: My "T" is a SCSI CD-burner.
<Doug> What is Windy?
<walteros2> Bill: where do you live.
<walteros2> Bill: Oops!
<wdl> Walter: Berkeley, Calif.
<walteros2> You can call me on the phone if you like.
<Kris> Bill, if your burner is T you do have already a partition S, hence the eCS instraller can't create it's S anymore....
<walteros2> My number is [DESPAM]
<walteros2> Kris: Exactly!
<wdl> Kris: Yes. So I've accomodated in the install options.
<walteros2> The eCS installer doesn't seem to actually use "T:" but it must be available.
<wdl> Walter: The
<wdl> Walter: The eCS installer doesn't "see" SCSI during install??? So shouldn't be a problem?
<walteros2> Bill: I'm sorry this is tiresome, but I get confused.
<Doug> Bill - is the CDROM SCSI? or IDE
<wdl> All: I've been "talking" to Alex Taylor. He has all this info, and lots more, and has pretty much thrown up his hands.
<wdl> Doug CD-ROM is IDE. CD-burner is SCSI.
<MADodel> What is the SCSI adapter?
<Doug> Bill - my experience: I have installed eCS to a machine that has SCSI and IDE drives. I could not get
installer to work off of the SCSI CD ROM.
<walteros2> Are you changing the default letters in the Installer (S:,T:), and if so what are you changing them to?
<Kris> Bill: so your next option should be V: or even W: , on condition there aren't any ramdrives with that letter...
<walteros2> Bill: So you want us to quit trying to help?
<wdl> Walter: "tiresome" way earlier was what happened here. Power/system/?? glitch. I winked out.
<wdl> "quit trying" Oh Lordy Noooo.
<Doug> But when I used an IDE CD-ROM I could install just fine. Except: I also could not get the installer to work when I had a SCSI ZIP drive connected during the install.
<walteros2> That's good.
<walteros2> Tiresome--understood. :-)
<Doug> Disconnecting the ZIP drive allowed the install to work. After installing I reconnected the ZIP drive, worked fine.
<Doug> Why don't you try and disconnect the CDROM burner?
<walteros2> Bill what letters do you set the Installer to?
<wdl> Doug: I have a ZIP, buts it's on one of my Parallel Ports.
<walteros2> If you change them, that is.
<wdl> Walter: I've tried the whole damn' alphabet, where there is left of it. ;-(
<Doug> The read.me for eCS talks about conflicts with ZIP drive on install. I think it was for SCSI, but it might have been for other types also.
<Kris> Bill: that zip takes a letter too, probably V:
<wdl> Kris: It's "R".
<Kris> Then you are using ppaos2.add, right?
<Kris> Then you are using ppaos2.add, right?
<wdl> Kris: So I'm conflicting with a default eCS install with both it's preferences.
<Kris> Bill: believe me, the eCS install is just one series of conflicts (-:
<wdl> Kris: I think so. It's been a long while back. But I don't/can't use the old Iomega OAD stuff.
<wdl> Kris "conflicts" You can say *that* again!
<Kris> No, but I would follow dougs advise; detach all removables when installing eCS
<wdl> Kris: I hear ya. Will try that later.
<Doug> I would detach everything you didn't have to have. Install like that, being sure to specify the drive letter for the volumn you want to end up with.
<wdl> Kris: ppaos2.add = Yes. I just looked in config.sys.
<Doug> After the install, I would put the other drives back in, boot off of floppies and go to LVM, making sure that the partition you installed to retains the same driver letter assignment from LVM
<wdl> Doug: Well, as stated, I've not gotten so far as to have it ask which partition to install *to*.
<Kris> Bill: but that shouldn't matter (ppaos2.add) for the eCS install. An attached removable however matters, for with removables lvm goes belly.
<Doug> I also had a problem once installing WSeB. I couldn't get past (or even to ) the LVM screen.
<wdl> All: Now, I have also tried the ploy of installing from a HDD copy of the CD.
<Doug> Turned out to be memory that was incompatible with the motherboard.
<wdl> ...That fails, too. Reasons unknown, but it hangs my system hard.
<walteros2> Bill: FWIW I'm convinced, based on my own misadventures, that the key to solving your problems in the drive letters.
<Doug> Are you putting ECS on its own physical hard drive?
<Kris> Bill: who told you to install from HD??????
<wdl> Walter: Of course; and I agree, and ...
<wdl> Kris: from HDD - it's in the manual.
<wdl> Kris: or maybe a readme somewhere.
<Kris> Surprises me. For, when installing from HD you're locking the HD, and I'm pretty much sure LVM can't cope with that.
<wdl> Kris: There's a specific procedure spelled out.
<wdl> "locking the HD". Yeah, well, I have *three*.
I don't know what your local phone rates are, but here on Sunday afternoon they're dirt
If you call me I could probably get you going in just a few minutes.
<Kris> No, specific the HD your're installing from will be locked.
<wdl> Walter: Attractive proposition. After the meeting?
<walteros2> Sure.
<wdl> Kris: Yes. So I specify another as a target. BUT, it never gets that far - to make that choice.
<Kris> Guys: and I am still halfway my network install too, please
<Doug> Its getting to be that time. Should we adjourn the "official" meeting
<Doug> and continue this after adjourning?
<walteros2> I'll go along with that.
<Kris> Bill: whatever you may assign as target, where you are installing FROM will be locked.
<wdl> Kris: Why would that matter, if *that* HD never gets written to?
<Doug> move to adjourn
<Kris> It's matter because lvm has to change MBR tables etc, which it can't do coz the dribe is locked.
<wdl> Kris: But the installer works from a RAM-drive. It seems it never gets to the point even - that I've reached with floppies...
<walteros2> All in favour of adjourning the "official" meeting, please type Aye.
<Doug> aye
<wdl> aye
<MADodel> aye
<walteros2> All opposed, say Nay.
14:00:00 <walteros2> Motion carried; meeting adjourned. <====Time approximate=====