WarpDoctor - General Meeting for 2004-02-01
12:00:00 The topic for #WarpDoctor is: WarpDoctor meeting in progress: Topic is Open Session.
<WalterOS2> Hi Treasurer. <g>
<WalterOS2> Hi Ken, Bill
<wdl> Hi Walter
<Gord> Hi, Walter
<WalterOS2> I didn't realize when I scheduled this meeting that today was Super Bowl Sunday.
<WalterOS2> Hi Jan-Erik
<Gord> If someone will take the log we can move right along to motion for adjournment.
<wdl> The log is being logged....
<WalterOS2> Hello Chuck
<jep> Hi all
<chuck> hi walter
<Gord> The agenda looks brief. :-)
<WalterOS2> For awhile I have wanted to try something different.
<wdl> Magic Words ...please?
<WalterOS2> I wanted to try having "Open Sessions" every month or two.
<WalterOS2> This meeting of Warpdoctor is now in session. :-)
<wdl> Tnx.
<WalterOS2> About the Open Sessions, I thought we might get more participation by the lurkers, and maybe get some new ideas even.
<WalterOS2> Hi Doug.
<Doug> hi all
<WalterOS2> Anyway, for now it's just an experiment. :-)
<WalterOS2> I only ask that the discussions relate to WarpDoctor in some way.
<Gord> Are we nearing the point yet where data will have to be input to the website?
<Doug> I love experiments
<WalterOS2> I've been wondering that too.
<Doug> If you guys are willing to go through some changes, we could "put the site up" right now.
<WalterOS2> What changes?
<Doug> Screens changing, folders moving around, some things not working some times, that sort of stuff
<Gord> OK by me.
<WalterOS2> What do you mean by "folders moving around"? Some telekenesis or something? <g>
<wdl> I'd ask that we try to hold the session to two hours ...MAX. Please?
<Gord> Ditto
<WalterOS2> OK by me.
<Doug> well - actually anyone with admin authority will be able to move folders, add new folders, or delete existing folders
<chuck> What is the state of the plug in? Is it done and stable?
<Doug> which right now is all of us.
<Doug> The plug-in will work with the site as it is (or would be put up)
<WalterOS2> Perhaps we should restrict it to you Doug and Ken?
<WalterOS2> admin authority, I mean.
<Doug> I am modifying it to allow it to communicate with EPM to provide some sort of more advanced HTML input
<Doug> There are certain circumstances when DrRexx will start and immediately terminate. The plug-in now gives a message with that happens.
<WalterOS2> Anyway, it's fine with me to put it up in its current state. (Would it be alpha or beta? <g> )
<Doug> It appears to be caused by conflicts with other running applications - like LXPM for example.
<Doug> So - I would say the plug-in is ready for us to use, but it will go through some more - mostly minor - changes.
<chuck> thanks doug, i'm interested in using it for a different application as well.
<Doug> Putting it up now would allow us to start putting in data now.
<WalterOS2> What about the XPager problem? Have you found a workaround?
<Doug> no I haven't. That is an outstanding issue.
<WalterOS2> Doug: I agree, I think that's important.
<WalterOS2> OK, I added a few comments to XTracker about it.
<WalterOS2> I was sort of hoping the new version of xwp would fix it; no such luck. :-(
<WalterOS2> Anyone NOT want to put it up?
<WalterOS2> I guess it's a go then.
<Doug> I assume we are going to leave it on 206.135.240.98 for now
<WalterOS2> Which server is that?
<KenKrchnr> That ip will work, but I don't know for how long...
<Doug> voice3
<KenKrchnr> The new IP for that server is 206.40.205.125
<KenKrchnr> That's what we've been calling voice3
<Doug> does ,,, 125 work now?
<KenKrchnr> Yes, it should.
<Doug> ok - I will change my hosts file.
<WalterOS2> Thanks, Ken.
<Doug> Part of what I am asking is - are we going to point www.warpdoctor.org at 206.40.205.125 now, or what until later?
<Doug> what=wait
<KenKrchnr> Doug, how much work would it be to change the url you look for to www2.warpdoctor.org?
<Doug> its do-able
<KenKrchnr> If we can do that, we can leave both sites up while adding data and debugging.
<WalterOS2> That's a great idea!
<Doug> I think it might be goog to leave both sites up.
<WalterOS2> goog-did you mean good, possibly? :-)
<Doug> ok - if its ok by everyone else - lets make www2.warpdoctor.org the test site. If I run into major problems changing that I will let us know
<Doug> ken - will you put www2 in the DNS?
<WalterOS2> I guess you can go for it.
<KenKrchnr> It's there :-)
<Doug> you clever guy you
<WalterOS2> Doug: Can you put up the WD now, so we can see what it looks like?
<Doug> hang on - let me look
<Doug> looks like www2.warpdoctor.org points to the "production" machien
<Doug> machine
<Doug> or rather - to VOICE
<KenKrchnr> Actually, you get the ip server because Apache doesn't yet have a virtual host for www2
<Doug> ok - so the short answer is: no
<Doug> is the ...125 machine the same one that is running VOICE, and the production WD?
<KenKrchnr> No, voice2 is .124
<WalterOS2> VOICE2 doesn't seem to contain anything usefull. At least the first page is never seen by users.
<WalterOS2> It says,
<WalterOS2> Welcome to VOICE1.
<WalterOS2> We hope you enjoy the sites and like the new home.
<WalterOS2> This site @ walkabout.org courtesy VOICE.
<WalterOS2> All content ¸ VOICE or the respective owner.
<WalterOS2> in large blue print.
<KenKrchnr> OK, Doug, try www2.warpdoctor.org now
<WalterOS2> Much better.
<KenKrchnr> Walter, yep that's what was on voice1. That was one of the things I questioned last week.
<Doug> yes - looks good. However the plug-in won't work on this site yet.
<KenKrchnr> Strangely enough, the plugin was semi working under Comm 4.61 just now.
<WalterOS2> Ken: I must have missed or misunderstood your question.
<KenKrchnr> There are some things different under Apache 2 that we need to talk about to fix some of the plugin problems.
<Doug> There are parts that are hard coded to www.warpdoctor.org - so if it works, it will probably do strange things
<Doug> yes - there is on or two configurations I did on ldgw that we will have to set on apache
<Doug> one or two
<KenKrchnr> And calling cgi's is different. You now have to use the file extension when calling any cgi.
<Doug> I ran into that the first time I switched from ldgw to apache - hopefully most of those instances are taken care of
<WalterOS2> Works here under NS4.61 with JS.
<WalterOS2> Doesn't work under Moz 1.61
<wdl> Doug: "Project Personnal" needs to be "... Personnel"
<KenKrchnr> So, for instance, cgi-bin/warpdoc_menu will give an error, we need cgi-bin/warpdoc_menu.exe
<Doug> thanks bill - I always get those confused.
<WalterOS2> Doug: Do you know what my login and password were. I've forgotten and/or mislaid them. :-(
<Doug> I'll send that info out to everyone this week
<WalterOS2> OK. I suggest you limit the admin to just two or three people.
<Doug> well - that brings up an issue that I have been struggling with for awhile. Right now - you have to have admin authority to add a new folder.
<Doug> That means that "normal" users that want to add content have to place the content into an existing folder.
<Doug> I did this to prevent a proliferation of similar folders
<Doug> The problem is - if there is a category that we haven't thought of - the person doesn't really have anywhere to put this data
<Doug> Does what I said make sense?
<Doug> for example - click on the Hardware folder.
<Doug> If there is some sort of strange new type of hardware that doesn't fit into one of the existing folders you see there - where does a "normal" user put that new hardware information
<Doug> The choices seem to be: allow anyone to create new folders - or put a MISC folder up for these situations, and the WD staff will go through the stuff in MISC and create new folders as necessary
<KenKrchnr> I'd vote against allowing anyone to create new folders :-)
<WalterOS2> Doug: Well, one option would be to do what Hobbes does. Have a special folder into which people upload things, and then move them to the new/correct folder.
<WalterOS2> I'm not saying that's the best way: I'm just throwing it out as an example.
<wdl> Incoming folder, then move ...gets my vote!
<WalterOS2> Aye.
<Doug> even in hobbes though - you specify where the new thing is to be put in the hobbes structure
<WalterOS2> (That's me voting in favour.) :-)
<wdl> That's an advisory - it's not automatic, I think.
<Doug> thought you turned scottish on us
<WalterOS2> ISTR an example or two where a file uploaded to \incoming in Hobbes wound up in a different folder that what the user specified.
<Doug> I would prefer to have everything as real-time and immediate as possible. One of the problems with hobbes is it takes forever for something to get from the incomming area to the proper place
<WalterOS2> Yes, that is the disadvantage, alright.
<Doug> How about if we create a folder called - "Does match any category"
<WalterOS2> Could we somehow limit uploads to the special directory to those that don't have an existing folder/category?
<wdl> The Hobbes maintainer is a grad student, which other fish to fry, often.
<Doug> and people can use that folder when they can't find one that matches where the info belongs?
<WalterOS2> Right.
<wdl> OUR guy(s)/gal(s) is gonna be on top of it all the time? ;-)
<Doug> The way it works now is: you select the folder you want the information to be in - then click on the Add Stuff icon
<Doug> So you have to put it in some folder.
<wdl> Doug: Bad idea, IMHO.
<Doug> Or - you drag a file and drop it on the folder where the info/file is to go
<wdl> Doug: If the user is allowed carte blanche to put it where he/she wants
<wdl> Doug: ...there'll inevitably be deterioration of the database integrity.
<wdl> Doug: You need error checking, etc, ...?
<WalterOS2> How about this approach?
<WalterOS2> 1. Have the user specify target folder;
<Doug> Each folder has "types" of data that it will accept. The user can't enter a "type" that the folder doesn't allow
<wdl> Doug: Hobbes may be slow, betimes, but the integrity of categorization seems pretty good - usually.
<WalterOS2> 2. If he can't find one, then leaves that question blank;
<wdl> Doug: "types" - yes, good.
<WalterOS2> 3. The machine uploads to the specified folder;
<WalterOS2> 4: If the target folder is empty, then machine stores info into the "Unknown" Category.
<WalterOS2> The end.
<Doug> Bill - it is worse than that - because the user can shadow a data item to different folder(s)
<wdl> Still, I might have printer info. I specify put it in "cameras". It goes there 'cause the DBF thingie can't *know* that's bad?
<wdl> Ooooh - shadows without FIRM control = BAD!
<Doug> very true - we will have to monitor the content on the site to make sure it is in the right place
<wdl> Overall, I prefer the Hobbes approach - at least in the beginning.
<Doug> And - a user can move a content item from one folder to another
<wdl> Let's learn as we go, but learn from a safe position??
<WalterOS2> Luzenski: Welcome back
<Doug> well - how about if we (WD) folks play with it awhile and see what conclusions we come to?
<wdl> Not all users will be as careful as we'd like. Not all will be benign of intent, either.
<Doug> Someone warned about bad users storing pornogaphy on our site - and I guess that is possible
<Doug> there is always a tradeoff between freedom and safety
<WalterOS2> That's a scary thought.
<Doug> we will have to be diligent about monitoring what is put on the site - and where
<WalterOS2> Maybe it be a good idea to require users to register?
<WalterOS2> be=would be
<wdl> Not a too-bad idea, but, ...ARGH.
<Doug> Right now they have to have a user id in order to add content - but we do not require a vaild email address
<WalterOS2> I
<Doug> And they can create their own user id automatically
<Doug> I suggest we be aware of possible abuses - but wait until we experience them to put the brakes on ease of use items
<WalterOS2> I'm just thinking that at least that would give us a little control over bad users, especiall if valid email addresses are required.
<WalterOS2> Doug: OK by me
<wdl> Who checks the email address validity?
<KenKrchnr> That could be automatic.
<WalterOS2> A lot of places. XTracker for one. Mensys for another.
<Doug> I think validating email address is pretty much a waste of time anymore. And it make me angry when I go to a site now days because I am VERY careful about who I give me real email address to
<WalterOS2> Basically anyplace that emails a "welcome message" is essentially checking for a valid email address,
<Doug> It is so easy to get a hotmail address, use that to get the user id, and then ditch the hotmail address
<Doug> So all we have done is slow down the bad guy
<Doug> and annoy the good guys
<WalterOS2> ISTR that BMT won't even allow @hotmail, @yahoo addresses.
<Doug> ISTR?
<KenKrchnr> Well, I will mention that our ftp server get many breakin attempts.
<WalterOS2> I seem to recall.
<wdl> If anyone uses the Wapdoctor, and finds even ONE bit of trash or misleading data, we'll quickly become dead meat. for
<wdl> I bbelieve database integrity is paramount, and must be protected at all cost.
<WalterOS2> wdl: Good point.
<WalterOS2> Well, requiring a physical email address based on an ISP would help a lot.
<wdl> Some sites, commercial, have levels of trust.
<wdl> First-timers aren't trusted much
<WalterOS2> And after all, anyone on the net must have an ISP and a corresponding email address.
<wdl> Later, with experience, they're given more privilege.
<wdl> Not a bad model.
<WalterOS2> I have never understood the attraction of the @hotmail type email accounts.
<wdl> Free.
<Doug> remember though - we are trying to encourage people to submit stuff. If we put a bunch of roadblocks in people's way, we will cut done on the contributions
<WalterOS2> But you get a free email address when you sign up with an ISP.
<wdl> Doug: users will understand, I think, if they're not road blocks...
<Doug> Every time you give out a real address - you run a big risk of that email address appearing on every spammer's list in the universe
<wdl> ...but aids to keeping data correct and valid.
<WalterOS2> We have weigh db integrity versus convenience.
<WalterOS2> have=have to
<Doug> I don't give out me email address now unle ss I am very sure who is getting it and what they are going to do with it
<wdl> Doug: Right on! Same here, in spades.
<WalterOS2> Maybe if we explain our rationale for the security, we'll gett less resistance.
<wdl> Doug: That's why we need integrity-checking, not user-checking.
<Doug> even getting "real" email address won;t insure that the advice in the data that is submitted is accurate
<wdl> That's integrity of database, not of user. ;-)
<Doug> And frankly - we probably won't be able to confirm accuracry on lots of the stuff
<WalterOS2> So how do we get the software to determine the difference between pornography and drivers?
<Doug> Unless we want to test all the entries ourselves
<WalterOS2> Worse, how can we get the software to make sure that the driver a person uploads is the right driver for that device?
<Doug> We would have to download and look at each item in the database. That is the only way
<Doug> We can't.
<wdl> Walter: The whole project just cries out for human maintenance/attention.I've got some experience in that area, with genetics databases ;-(
<Doug> But we are now getting into part of the issues of what is different between us an Jonas
<WalterOS2> wdl: I know; I'm just trying to keep it to a minimum.
<WalterOS2> To some extent I'm also bringing up points for discussion.
<Doug> There will ALWAYS be stuff that works on some machines and not others: example - ldgw
<wdl> Doug: Imagine that Hobbes is and was structured like we are proposing here. What would ANY of us think about Hobbes' usefulness???
<Gord> Does anyone know how Chck McInnes (s p?) handled the data for his NICPAK site?
<Doug> All of the issues you bring up still apply to Hobbes. There is no way that the grad student tests each thing that is posted on Hobbes
<WalterOS2> I don't think so!
<Doug> Heck - he doesn't even have time to move the stuff over that often
<WalterOS2> wdl: In your genetics database, how did you keep it accurate?
<WalterOS2> accurate=protect it from bad data?
<wdl> Walter: "accurate" = ALWAYS have a qualified human check inputted data.
<Doug> Lets take an example. Say Fred uploads a drive he says works on his machine. Bill downloads the driver and it doesn't work on his machine. What do you do?
<wdl> Walter: ...and qualified meant vetted by the lab director (me), and verified from time to time...
<Doug> DO you remove the driver? Test it on other machines? Leave it there and put a note on it?
<wdl> ... by various software checks.
<WalterOS2> wdl: I'm inclined to agree with your insistence on the need for human TLC.
<wdl> Walter: Whew! Integrity is paramount, ...crucial. And human checking simply HAS to happen.
<WalterOS2> Doug: Bart's solution to the XPAGE problem didn't work on my machines; I just left a note to that effect on the XTracker DB.
<Doug> Yes - but it DID work on his machine. That is real life.
<Doug> If we included that in WD - would that diminish the database integrity?
<WalterOS2> I understand; but a solution isn't a solution unless it works on at least the vast majority of machines.
<Doug> I disagree. To my way of thinking: there are official sites, like IBM and Jonas - that test and only list software that is "guraenteed" to work on all machines
<Doug> (which is true most of the time)
<WalterOS2> I still think it's better to record the reality, than to report nothing--i.e remove the driver.
<Doug> We aren't that type of site
<Doug> I agree that something ought to be said about the probability of it working on all machines
<WalterOS2> Doug: When was the last time you saw a guarantee on anything IBM produced? VBG
<WalterOS2> Doug: Seriously, I think you and I are on the same track.
<Doug> true - but in theory - if you buy a supported thingy from them - they make it work. The reality is often different. But that it the theory
<WalterOS2> We could include a number or grade, indicating the probability of it working or the percentage of tested machines on which it worked.
<Doug> Let me put it another way. The database integrity will be assured by the design of the database and screens. The quality of the data in the database will always be a question
<Doug> I have been toying with the idea of having "comments", where different users could attache "comments" to an item that is "owned" by someone else.
<Doug> Something like a news group
<WalterOS2> I think that's a good idea. :-)
<wdl> Doug: "Comments" added = good idea.
<Doug> If a user downloads a driver and it doesn't work, or there is an error or addition to be made to instructions, someone to attach a comment to the original item
<wdl> Doug: YES!
<Doug> to = could attach
<WalterOS2> I also believe we have to a valid email address of the person who uploaded the data so we can contact him if there's a question?
<Doug> This sort of becomes a blend between a forum and download
<Doug> Currently - the help for creating a user id strongly encourages a valid email address - but the screen does not require one
<wdl> Doug: And keep track of, and report, the number of downloads through time? Please?
<WalterOS2> Doug: Have you looked at xtracker.netlabs.org?
<wdl> Doug: Gives an idea of usefulness, if only imperfectly.
<Doug> The trade off is: if someone doesn't put a valid email address and there is a question that cannot be answered - the item gets deleted
<Doug> walter - no to having looked at xtracker
<WalterOS2> You should. I think it's an excellent design.
<Doug> ok - will do
<WalterOS2> It was designed by the same person who did xWorkPlace and WarpIn
<Doug> ulrich?
<WalterOS2> The same. Couldn't think of his name.
<WalterOS2> the URL is http://xtracter.netlabs.org
<Doug> In an ideal world - we would repackage all the drivers and software that appears on the site to use WarpIn as the installer
<WalterOS2> make that http://xtracker.netlabs.org
<WalterOS2> :-)
<Doug> ok - thanks
<WalterOS2> So, is there a consensus--I can't believe I used that word?
<wdl> Walter: xtracker looks pretty cool. It *seems* to *require* cookies??? I detaest cookies.
<WalterOS2> About the need for human oversight I mean.
<wdl> All: *Must* have human oversight, someway, somehow, sometime(s).
<WalterOS2> wdl: I believe it's optional. Depends on whether you check a small box.
<Doug> we do too (require cookies)
<wdl> Walter: Yes. Couldn't/didn't try that.
<wdl> Doug: That alone limits the usefulness to me. I just don't use "cookie" sites unless it's life/death.
<KenKrchnr> Don't tell him Doug :-)
<wdl> Doug: eveen then, I erase them as soon as possible.
<Doug> its really difficult, because of how HTTP works, to make sites without cookies
<wdl> Doug: HUH?
<Doug> with HTTP no information about a previous screen/page is passed to the server when you go to a new page. You have to use cookies to have data that is persistent
<Doug> example of persistent data: user id and password
<wdl> Doug: Yes, that I understand. That suggests registration; and I accepty that (when I must).
<Doug> see - you dislike cookies - I dislike email addresses!
<WalterOS2> oops!
<wdl> Doug: I *still* erase the cookies soon as I leave the site. Imperfect, but then my paranoia is at least as bad as yours. ;-)
<WalterOS2> Doug, Ken: How do you guys feel about the need for human supervision of the database contents?
<Doug> Absolutely necessary. But part of the design goal is to reduce that need as much as possible
<WalterOS2> OK--You and I are on exactly the same track. :-)
<wdl> Doug: Fair statement; and I agree.
<WalterOS2> My concern about human intervention is that a) People are very busy and b) Voice and WD both have a track record of people leaving after a year or less. That makes it tough to find someone to oversee the database.
<WalterOS2> However, you guys (esp. wdl) have convinced me it's necessary.
<wdl> Walter: <blush>
<WalterOS2> LOL
<WalterOS2> Ken, are you still here?
<WalterOS2> Guess he's gone to watch the SB.
<Doug> or at least the commercials
<WalterOS2> What about Chuck?
<WalterOS2> And Gord?
<KenKrchnr> I'm here.
<Doug> do you guys get the SB in the great white north?
<jep> Couldn't the rating for the packages indicate what to do with it.
<WalterOS2> Oh, yes. We get the american channel, plus at least one of the Cdn channels always cover it.
<jep> e.g. 100% for the first with a note that it's not verified...
<Gord> I'm here.
<jep> and when people find it and try it, they'd report as working/not working.
<WalterOS2> I just want to get everyone's opinion as to the need for human supervision over the data in WD?
<wdl> jep: Hopefully they'd report...
<Gord> Essential.
<WalterOS2> OK, thanks.
<wdl> ...essential!
<Doug> jep - you mean a rating system like Amazon.com does for books?
<jep> and when it drop below e.g. 70% somone has to verify that it's worth the effort to try out.
<jep> before it can be put online again
<WalterOS2> And to keep around, for that matter.
<jep> exactly
<WalterOS2> I think jep's got a good idea.
<wdl> Doug: If the Amazon model could be used, it'd raise the Warpdoc utility to users immensely!
<jep> It doesn't solve the pron stuff though :-(
<Doug> unless it showed up in the ratings :)
<WalterOS2> Ken: What do you think about the need for human supervision over the data in WD?
<KenKrchnr> You are always going to need someone to check things as much as possible.
<WalterOS2> jep: "pron stuff"?
<WalterOS2> We seem to be all agreed.
<Doug> porn stuff
<WalterOS2> OK
<Doug> Does anyone have any comments on the Warpin doc I sent out yesterday?
<jep> Should be pr0n ;-)
<WalterOS2> Didn't get it.
<wdl> Doug: What did you send, and to whom?
<Gord> A bit over my head.
<Doug> sent out a PDF file attached to an email. Sent to warpdoctorNOT@THISos2voice.org
<WalterOS2> Warpdoctor got reset to not allow attachments. Grr.
<Doug> Gord - did you get it?
<WalterOS2> I fixed it yesterday, but that may have been too late for your message.
<WalterOS2> It's 5:00p. Anyone want to call for adjournment?
<Doug> move to adjourn
<WalterOS2> All in favour, type Aye.
<wdl> Walter: "too late" - Not in my own inbox, nor my Warpdoc.org box.
<wdl> Aye.
<Gord> Yes, It was a bit over my head.
<Doug> I got it, and Gord got it. Hmmm....
<Doug> aye
<KenKrchnr> Aye
14:03:53 <WalterOS2> Motion is carried. Meeting adjourned.