WarpDoctor - General Meeting for 2004-01-25
12:08:48 <WalterOS2> This meeting of Warpdoctor is now in session
<WalterOS2> wdl: Have you started the log?
<wdl> WalterOS2: Yes. Been meaning to talk to you/officers 'bout that. What the h**l do I DO with all the stuff. Is there an archive I should be putting it in???
<Simpson_2> <20:36> <JonOS2> I will try and join the meeting @ +-22h30 CET
<WalterOS2> wdl: No--we've just been leaving on the web site.
<wdl> Walter: Yup.
<WalterOS2> Bart: Would you like to explain your proposed solution?
<WalterOS2> Maybe it will work for others. :-)
<Simpson_2> well I wouldn't call it a solution !
<wdl> WalterOS2: May I delete everyuthing in MY box, that isn't relevant to ME??
<Simpson_2> its just some investigation I tried to do on the problem
<Simpson_2> then I ran into the follwing behaviour. with HPP
<Simpson_2> start your machine. HPP will 'freeze' the pager
* WalterOS2 wdl I don't understand.
<Simpson_2> kill xwpdaemn ( which is the pager a.o.)
<WalterOS2> a.o.?
<Simpson_2> then restart the xwpdaemn with 'start xwpdaemn -D'
<Simpson_2> a.o. = among others
<WalterOS2> thx
<Simpson_2> after restartng the pager, the problem with HPP is gone on my 2 systtems
<wdl> WalterOS2: I've nearly 400 messages in my Warpdoctor Inbox!!! Came all in a big BIG swoosh...
<WalterOS2> Simpson_2: I am using the latest full release of HP. Could that be a factor?
<wdl> WalterOS2: I deleted the super-obvious spam. Waiting for, uh, instruction on what to do with the rest.
<Simpson_2> WalterOS2: no clue :)
<Simpson_2> WalterOS2: but the way I described it you can't work around it ?
<Doug> Bart - I just tried your solution, and it doesn't fix my xpager problem either.
<Doug> sorry
<Simpson_2> well it wasn't a fix to start with
<wdl> WalterOS2: Kewl. Thanks.
<Doug> what does the -D do?
<Simpson_2> trouble is now I have to rebot everytime to test a debug build :(
<Simpson_2> Doug: try it withou
<Simpson_2> without
<Doug> without the -D ?
<WalterOS2> I tried it without the -D and got a rather cute message.
<WalterOS2> "Hi there." Thanks for your interest in xworkplace; however it's meant to be started only when xWorkplace is started...not manually."
<WalterOS2> People are dropping like flies. :-)
<WalterOS2> er..flies, even.
<Kris> Well, is there something going to happen now?
<Doug> walter - I tried the same thing you did (starting without -D), and I got the same message you did.
<Doug> looks like we lost Bart
<Doug> walter - are you there?
<KenKrchnr> Somewhere
<Simpson_2> wrong time to debug xwp
<Doug> Bart - walter and I both tried start xwpdaemn without the -D option, and we get a strange message that says you cannot manually start the xwpdaemn
<Simpson_2> you asked for the reason to -D ;)
<Doug> yes
<Simpson_2> well thats it :)
<Doug> that answers that question. Does the -D also produce some type of debug output?
<WalterOS2> Doug, Bart: I just installed HPP on a different machine without registering it. I then tried the xwpdaemn -D thingy, and got the same results.
<WalterOS2> So it doesn't matter whether or not HPP is registered.
<Simpson_2> WalterOS2: okay
<WalterOS2> See:- I wasn't gone; I stepped into the other lab. :-)
<Simpson_2> Doug: no it alows it to start
<Doug> OK - thanks
<WalterOS2> Bart: Anything else we can do to help with this problem.
<WalterOS2> ?
<Simpson_2> hmm send me time :)
<WalterOS2> :-)
<WalterOS2> Would it help if Doug tried the same test on his plugin?
<Doug> Yeah - If you find any spare time laying around, send some to me too!
<Doug> I just did walter. And I got the same result.
<WalterOS2> OK
<WalterOS2> Bart: Thanks a lot for taking the time to join us, and to work on the problem. :-)
<WalterOS2> Hi Niels
<NielsJ> Hi Walter! and everyoneelse!
<WalterOS2> If there's nothing more regarding XPager right now, we might as well go the agenda.
<WalterOS2> Agenda is at: http://www.warpdoctor.org/agendas/warpdoc_2004-01-25.html
<WalterOS2> Anybody not read it or have trouble accessing it?
<WalterOS2> OK, let's move on.
<WalterOS2> A. Old Business
<WalterOS2> 1. Redbooks - thanks to Niels :-)
<NielsJ> You are welcome!
<WalterOS2> a. Ken, have you changed the directory?
<WalterOS2> I seem to remember that you were going to. :-)
<KenKrchnr> Not yet. By the way, was that you (Niels) that u/l a bunch more stuff this week?
<NielsJ> No!
<KenKrchnr> Hmmm, anybody want to take credit?
<WalterOS2> OK. whoever it was, 'fess up!
<WalterOS2> :-)
<Doug> probably Kris
<Kris> Well, you did ask me to do, didn't you?
<Doug> Thanks Kris
<WalterOS2> Yes--thanks!
<WalterOS2> Ken--what else needs to be done?
<WalterOS2> Maybe someone could give you a hand.
<KenKrchnr> Do we want them to show up, or keep quiet so IBM doesn't (potentially) take offense?
<WalterOS2> with the Redbooks, I mean. :-)
<WalterOS2> Good question!
<WalterOS2> Comments, anyone?
<wdl> WalterOS2; Ken: Keep it on the QT for now.
<Kris> What kind of offence could BIg Blue take?
<NielsJ> Looking at the folder tree on the new site there seems to be some work to distribute the redbooks among the folders.
<WalterOS2> At worst, they would probably just us to remove them.
<wdl> Walter/Ken: Specific requests to Warpdoctor could be handled quietly.
<Kris> On what authority could they ask?
<WalterOS2> wdl: I think you're on the right track.
<wdl> Walter/Ken: The site could mention that such requests would "be considered".
<WalterOS2> Kris: I believe they're copyrighted material.
<KenKrchnr> They are.
<Kris> My bibliotheue is full of copyrighted books!
<wdl> Walter/Ken: But meantime, make sure someone else has copies!! Security in numbers...
<NielsJ> Not all the stuff I u/l came directly from IBM Redbook site. OS/2 Site also have redbooks floating around
<KenKrchnr> I've made local and cd backups :-)
<wdl> Walter/Ken: A CD or two(?) snail-mailed to some officers?
<Doug> I suggest that we not put them up on our site right now. As long as they are available at IBM, we don't need to make them available from us
<wdl> Doug: Yes; shrewd.
<Doug> When we get the new site running we can make links from the appropriate folders to the IBM URLs.
<Doug> If the redbooks go away from the IBM site, then we can consider what to do with our "backups"
<Kris> Guys, Big Blue only could make waves if we were supposed to make money with the RB
<Kris> Now, as we pau a little fee for our membership to WD, they could argue "we are making money" <G>
<NielsJ> If I recall correctly Redbooks are somewhat different from other documents released by IBM in that they don't contain a do not distribute clause.
<Kris> So, that's the way they could threaten us.
<wdl> Kris: No. That's part of the issue behind the RIAA's file-sharing flap.
<Kris> For, Niels and I I've downloaded the lot for free from free public domain.
<Kris> wdl: what's the file sharing trap?
<WalterOS2> They all say "(c) IBM Copyright" plus they do sell them for a lot more that the cost of the media.
<wdl> Kris/all: Copyright is copyRIGHT. Broadly construed by most courst, IMH(not-a-lawyer)O.
<wdl> Kris: The RIAA is suing peer-to-peer downloaders of (copyrighted) music files.
<Kris> wdl: I haven't infringed their copyright by downloading from their site, have I?
<KenKrchnr> IBM allows free d/l's. At most they'd ask that they not be redistributed. If Niels recalls correctly even that would not be an issue.
<WalterOS2> In the past, there have been documents, quotations on the 'net that IBM didn't like. All they did was to call the webmaster, and ask him to remove the material.
<Doug> as long as the books are available from IBM, it is better for us to link to them, if for no other reason than it cuts down on downloading traffic
<WalterOS2> IBM isn't as nasty as MS$.
<Kris> Keną you're right.
<wdl> Kris: Not by downloading, you yourself. But further distribution *could* be infringement. So the RIAA argues...
<Kris> Walter: they could be, eventually, it's better to be prepared.
<Kris> wdl: that's why I was saying their only argument could be we are making money.
<WalterOS2> Kris: Are you *sure* you're not a lawyer?
<WalterOS2> I'm not going to worry about it.
<Kris> No, I'm not that sure. :-)
<WalterOS2> It's not much different than copying drivers from Vendor sites to WD. We've agreed to do this.
<WalterOS2> We're not redistributing them, and we're certainly not making any money from them.
<Kris> So, I'll repat: as it stands now, BB might make waves if they could argue we are making money with these copyrighted editions, no more, no less.
<WalterOS2> BB?
<Doug> big blue
<Kris> Bib Blue :-)
<WalterOS2> Ah
<Kris> make that Big Blue.
<wdl> All I'm arguing for is "look before leaping". Don't post for public access without a lot of *careful* thought.
<Kris> wdl: quite right.
<wdl> But, ultimately, I'm all in favor of wider access - by *some* means. ;-)
<Doug> some of you guys stayed late last week and remember Jonas's concern with our posting of copyrighted material
<WalterOS2> Well, wdl, said we should not publish on the web, but make them available on the QT if someone asks.
<WalterOS2> His copyrighted material!
<Kris> walter: wdl has it right.
<WalterOS2> I don't see how he can get upset if we copy some drivers written by, say, Epson.
<Doug> I told him that our policy was that we link to copyrighted material until the company goes out of business or the material becomes unavailable
<Doug> (which is what I thought our policy was)
<wdl> Doug: If it isn't, it should be. And clearly stated.
<Doug> I think that the reason we are storing material is as a "backup", in case it become unavailable
<WalterOS2> Doug: I thought we were going to both. When they're unavailable, the link is dead, and it's too late to copy them. :-)
<Doug> Exactly right. We will have copies already stored - like we do with the redbooks
<WalterOS2> Doug: OK, that's fine with me. I think that's what we talked about.
<WalterOS2> We could treat the Redbooks the same way.
<Doug> But until they go away and we can't link to them, we should link to the "official" location
<WalterOS2> Agreed.
<Doug> It make our life a little harder - cause we have to maintain the links - but I think it is the least offensive policy to have
<Doug> to all potential parties, I mean
<WalterOS2> Only problem is, "We'll have to continually update the drivers and other software, as it changes on the official site."
<WalterOS2> Could you automate this process, somehow, in your DB engine?
<Doug> we have to add new drivers, when "they" update their drivers, but I think we want to link to (have available) older versions also
<NielsJ> Do we have tools to automatically check the status of the links, which we put on the WD site?
<Doug> I THINK I can automate a check to see if a link still returns some data.
<WalterOS2> I think you're right, but that can also be confusing.
<WalterOS2> Doug: That would be a help. :-)
<Doug> The plan is that each link will have a "flag" and a date associated with the link.
<wdl> Doug: There are utilities which check for dead links. Some versions of Communicator allowed this with bookmarks. Maybe Mozilla also. Haven't tried.
<WalterOS2> Could you include a rtn to check to see if the link still returns the same driver that we have stored.
<Doug> Each time the link is "checked" the date is set to the check date. If the link does not return information, the flag is set to an error
<WalterOS2> Even if it only flagged with a message in a log, it would save a lot of time.
<Doug> Some human will have to go through an error report and look at all the links that get reported as bad
<WalterOS2> Of course.
<WalterOS2> Guess we'll have to hire someone. VBG
<wdl> Doug: Or re-check on some schedule, only the previous "error" conditions.
<wdl> Doug: Humans would be called only on "persistent re-try" errors.
<Doug> my fear is then when link returns data, but it is not the data we think it is - those will be tougher to track down
<NielsJ> Like the way IBM treats most errors on there web-sites.
<Doug> Just having all the links in "one location" will make it easier to check, even if a human has to click on all of them
<WalterOS2> If it doesn't match what we have stored, the link would have to be flagged, and stored for some human to look at and change if necessary.
<WalterOS2> stored with a status code would be even better.
<WalterOS2> I'm talking about a log or warning file here. :-)
<Doug> storing the "check date" with the link will let us see when the last time the link was checked
<WalterOS2> All you would need to store is the link, the status message, and if you can, where it points to in our DB.
<WalterOS2> I think we're all on the same track. :-)
<Doug> exactly the plan, walter
<WalterOS2> Great!
<WalterOS2> And treat the RB's the same way?
<Doug> yeah - they are just another link
<wdl> But - please! - get the WDoc site *working*. Sooner rather than later. Then fine-tune it "as we go".
<wdl> Import, giving current issues - on the agenda(?) even...
<wdl> "Import" = "Important"
<WalterOS2> Agreed--what we just talked about should be reserved for Phase II--maybe even Phase III
<WalterOS2> :-)
<WalterOS2> Hi JEP
<Doug> the checking will be
<WalterOS2> Good
<WalterOS2> Anything else on the Redbooks or what we've just been talking about?
<WalterOS2> We sorta drifted there a bit. :-)
<WalterOS2> If not, let's move on...
<WalterOS2> A2. Status of XPager problem.
<WalterOS2> We've already covered that one.
<WalterOS2> A3. os2warp.be issue
<WalterOS2> For my money, we should apply the same procedure/reasoning to stuff on that site that we are going to do with commercial drivers.
<Doug> I agree
<wdl> MINUS the QT downloads!!
<WalterOS2> Unless J. is writing drivers, he can't object to us copying or archiving drivers that were written by another individual or company.
<WalterOS2> If he *has* written drivers, then obviously we won't copy them, but I don't think he has.
<wdl> He could. He may have contracts we don't know about. He's even alluded to that...
<WalterOS2> We should be able to tell from the copyright statement.
<Doug> From our conversation last week, I don't think Jonas objects to our "archiving" drivers, as long as our active links points to his site when we list material that comes from him
<WalterOS2> NP--that's the same as what we talked about drivers in general and the RB.
<Doug> He does object to our "cutting and pasting" of text about the driver(s) from his site
<Doug> which is copyrighted. And the objection is valid.
<Doug> But yes walter - this is the same policy that we apply to all the other stuff.
<WalterOS2> I can understand that. I've been told that he has spent a lot of his own money buying actual hardware to test.
<wdl> Maybe Not all his own. "J"'s not as candid with us about his agenda, as we've been with him about ours.
<WalterOS2> For those drivers, we should probably link to the manufacturer's site, archive *their* description, and then link also to the os2warp.be page.
<Doug> I agree
<WalterOS2> wdl: You mean I'm not the only person who's noticed that? :-)
<wdl> Oh no!!!!
<Doug> From what I remember, I don't think he has links to drivers on his site. His interest is more on testing the hardware to make sure that it works
<Doug> Our interest leans more on the links. It is a shame that we cannot figure out a way to combine to the advantage of both of us.
<wdl> Doug: "of both" = "FOR both" ?? ;-)
<Doug> yeah - sorry
<Doug> But I am actually optimistic. I think we will eventually find a way to coorperate with a number of other sites.
<WalterOS2> Probably.
<Doug> Anyway - could I give you status on WarpIN before we end?
<JonOS2> evening
<Doug> howdee
<WalterOS2> BTW, J. doesn't seem to mind "cutting and pasting" information from other sites and individuals directly onto his site. See http://www.os2warp.be/index2.php?name=nicpak .
<WalterOS2> I wonder if he got Chuck's permission first. :-)
<JonOS2> WalterOS2: before you starts your critics, nicpak is an agreement between chuch & myself :p
<JonOS2> you'll notice a redirect on his page next week :)
<WalterOS2> I just wondered. :-)
<Doug> WarpIN???....
<WalterOS2> Doug, please go ahead with your report on Warpin.
<Doug> thanks
<Doug> I got off on a track that I might not have started down - but I wanted to integrate WarpIn into the WD site
<WalterOS2> OK, I remember now.
<Doug> This involves making WarpIN look and behave as if it is part of the HTML page - which is actually done
<Doug> I also wanted to make it so that you could use WarpIN for what I call "dynamic" installations (for lack of a better term)
<Doug> which means - that the *.WPI file would be very small, when you started WarpIN it would check what parts needed to be downloaded and download those parts as part of the install process
<Doug> Normally that would be a fairly simple thing to do with the Rexx macro support built into WarpIN, except for one thing.
<Doug> The one thing is the timing of when WarpIn executes the Rexx macro(s) and when it updates its install database.
<Doug> That turned out to be a completely different (meaning more difficult) problem.
<Doug> In the process of trying to do that, a number of different ways, I have come up with a list of changes that I think need to be made to WarpIN to enable it to truely be "the installer oc choice" in the OS/2 world.
<Doug> Seeing what is involved, I don't want to make those modifications now to WarpIN - I would rather get the WD site up and then go back to WarpIN
<wdl> Hooray!!
<WalterOS2> I agree.
<Doug> So my suggestion, if you all agree, is to finish the part that allows packages to be dynamically downloaded, then "release" that version of WarpIN, then publish the list of other changes and hope someone else does them
<wdl> I vote "agree".
<Doug> What I think OS/2 needs (and WarpIN was trying to accomplish) is one location where you could find out what was installed on your system
<WalterOS2> Doug: Good luck with getting someone else to do them.
<Doug> There are a couple of changes that need to be made to WarpIN in order to allow that to happen.
<Doug> It is those changes that hopefully someone else will do. And if not, I can take them up again in the future
<JonOS2> must go now... see you!
<Doug> bye Jonas
<WalterOS2> Bye
<Doug> I wanted to get the "integrated into HTML page" changes done now, so that the WarpIn team could release the official version with those changes in time to match our "site release"
<Doug> I hope to submit those changes back to the WarpIn team, maybe this week.
<WalterOS2> OK.
<WalterOS2> BTW, I am composing an email to Jonas describing what we have already decided to do. I'll ask him what, if any problems, he has with it.
<Doug> good
<wdl> A prudent move...
<WalterOS2> This IRC room is for WD, and I'm not anxious to have a prolonged discussion about his (or any other) site.
<WalterOS2> However, if he has legitimate concerns I'll make it clear that he's more than welcome to come back and work them out with us.
<WalterOS2> However, it sounds to me that we've already given him everything he asked for. :-)
<WalterOS2> sounds=seems
<wdl> WalterOS2: But maybe not everything he wants...
<WalterOS2> I know: he may not want us to copy information from the original site if he has the same driver on his.
<WalterOS2> But on what grounds could he expect that?
<Doug> we discussed that last week after the end of the meeting, and he said that was ok
<WalterOS2> Good.
<WalterOS2> Let's go to A4: Switch-over to VOICE/Warpdoctor.
<Doug> Basically, what we said this week, is what we discussed last week with Jonas, and he said he was OK with it.
<WalterOS2> Ken, can you give us a brief status report?
<WalterOS2> Doug: Great.
<KenKrchnr> Everything is now on voice2. This morning I updated the entries for the new ip addresses.
<Doug> namely: we will probably have the same drivers listed on our site as he has on his, we will not copy (cut and paste) text from his site into ours, we will have links to the drivers, and backup copies on our site, but we will link to the official site
<KenKrchnr> We have changed to 206.40.205.124. I have 206.40.205.125 held for new warpdoctor if we need it.
<WalterOS2> Ken: Great. How's mail?
<WalterOS2> Maybe I should say where?
<KenKrchnr> Mail has been fine for several weeks now.
<WalterOS2> OK, so what if anything is still running over at TE?
<KenKrchnr> No public services.
<WalterOS2> public?
<WalterOS2> What about "private"?
<KenKrchnr> FTP, dtoc and such
<KenKrchnr> But ftp would only be for stuff not to be made public.
<WalterOS2> OK, let's talk about them next week. It's getting late.
<WalterOS2> Thanks for coming, everyone!
<WalterOS2> This was a good meeting.
<KenKrchnr> Doug and I have also tried the new warpdoctor under Apache 2.0.48. It seems OK.
<WalterOS2> Ken: Super.
<KenKrchnr> This may solve several problems we've been discussing.
<WalterOS2> What's the maximum time you've had it running?
<KenKrchnr> It's still running. Almost a week now.
<WalterOS2> Without crashes.
<WarpedOS2> Walter, I have had 2.0.48 run for almost 2 months
<WalterOS2> Good to hear.
<WalterOS2> Thanks, Vaughn. We were having some weird problem at Ken's, though.
<WarpedOS2> I know...
<wdl> I move to adjourn.
<WalterOS2> All in favour, type Aye.
<WarpedOS2> I have PHP running and DAV/2 as well installed in Apache
<wdl> Aye
<NielsJ> Aye
<Gord> Aye
<Doug> aye
<KenKrchnr> Aye
<NielsJ> What is DAV/2?
<WalterOS2> I guess that's everyone. :-)
14:20:29 <WalterOS2> Motion is carried; meeting is adjourned.