01-12-103 12:12:33 This meeting of WarpDoctor is now in session. 01-12-103 12:12:47 Sector: you taking the log? 01-12-103 12:12:56 Yup 01-12-103 12:13:02 Thanks. 01-12-103 12:13:18 Business Arising from Minutes 01-12-103 12:13:46 As I promised Bill last week, he's first up on the agenda: 01-12-103 12:14:06 A1a. HCL Project 01-12-103 12:15:09 wdl and Gord: I take it that you would like some guidance from the group on what information should be put in the Matrix? 01-12-103 12:15:15 yes 01-12-103 12:15:27 And how it should be organized. 01-12-103 12:15:41 Yes. Both. 01-12-103 12:15:47 And how it is to be put in. 01-12-103 12:16:13 OK, are there any suggestions from the virtual floor? 01-12-103 12:16:25 And who puts it... 01-12-103 12:17:33 Type of hardware, Brand, model, chipset, driver location, versions OS/2-eCS tested. comments 01-12-103 12:18:26 and driver(s) files themselves 01-12-103 12:18:52 How should we account for missing info? Just leave it blank? Would that be misleading? 01-12-103 12:19:11 These can be put in by driver developers, testers, users, using Doug's plugin. 01-12-103 12:19:13 Maybe put N/A (Not Available) 01-12-103 12:19:17 mark it as NK (Not Known)? 01-12-103 12:19:26 or N/A ;-) 01-12-103 12:19:42 Do you really want "source" e-mail addr "in the clear"? 01-12-103 12:20:10 wdl, what do you mean? 01-12-103 12:20:30 Show the email address of the submiter to everyone 01-12-103 12:20:32 wdl: The Notebook/2 site always lists the source so people can contact them for more information. 01-12-103 12:20:35 No - I don't think that we want any emails of contributors publicly available. But they should be in the database so that we can send questions, if needed 01-12-103 12:20:37 Can't a "bot" harvest the addrs for nefarious purposes?? 01-12-103 12:21:21 If the contributor needs to be contacted by other users: how about if we do it like ebay 01-12-103 12:21:51 user 1 writes a message, presses button, the site sends it to the contributor email, without revealing the email address 01-12-103 12:21:51 Doesn't Yahoo hide the poster's email address so that it can't be seen? 01-12-103 12:22:14 However, clicking on it will generate a message to the source. 01-12-103 12:22:57 Several large online organizations work that way, actually. 01-12-103 12:23:01 sound like the same thing 01-12-103 12:23:26 "Can't be seen" on the CRT isn't the same as "can't be read" by a bot. 01-12-103 12:24:10 It wont be in a hidden field or any other location that can be bot read 01-12-103 12:24:12 There are various ways to "discourage" bots from scanning a web page. 01-12-103 12:24:36 Yes. But not in use now?? 01-12-103 12:24:54 But the address won't be on the web page. It will be in a database, won't it? 01-12-103 12:25:09 Good point. 01-12-103 12:25:25 And not accessible from any link in the site 01-12-103 12:25:39 Gord: Well, ...that's the question 01-12-103 12:25:39 Database should be inaccessible. 01-12-103 12:25:41 (without password protection) 01-12-103 12:26:10 Doug: what do you mean? 01-12-103 12:26:44 Gord is right. I am planning (unless you all give different direction) for the email address and some password to be stored in a USERS table 01-12-103 12:27:06 in the database. That table will not be accessible except through administrator type password and user IDs 01-12-103 12:27:34 But we can set up a little program/link that will send a message, typed in the screen, to a specific email 01-12-103 12:28:31 But the email would not be visible from any linke - even the one where the message was typed and sent from 01-12-103 12:28:38 (address that is) 01-12-103 12:29:30 There are *now* a fair number of addresses "up" on static web pages. Thay'd *all* need to be changed. 01-12-103 12:29:46 YEs - that is true 01-12-103 12:30:03 So, who changes 'em? 01-12-103 12:30:08 I will 01-12-103 12:30:25 Whoo-o-o-ie 01-12-103 12:30:37 Lotta work. 01-12-103 12:30:42 I plan to automate most of that 01-12-103 12:31:09 i.e. stuff the page into the database, search database for @, strip out email address and put into proper field 01-12-103 12:31:13 Which addresses/web pages are you talking about? 01-12-103 12:31:42 i.e. The static ones 01-12-103 12:32:13 I am thinking of all the stuff in e:\home\warpdoctor\public_html and files. 01-12-103 12:32:31 As one drills down through the HCL, the last page in a chain is the information sought. It has an email addr often. 01-12-103 12:32:37 should a contributor be able to opt to have his e-mail address directly available? 01-12-103 12:33:20 my opinion is yes 01-12-103 12:33:31 I suppose, but why? :-) 01-12-103 12:34:37 freedom of choice! 01-12-103 12:34:47 Can't argue with that. 01-12-103 12:35:09 Walter: "why" might be 'cause a driver developer wants(!) more immediate contact?? 01-12-103 12:35:18 But default is to hide address. 01-12-103 12:35:27 Yes. 01-12-103 12:35:29 Doug: How hard is that for you to implement? 01-12-103 12:35:45 Gord: Agreed. 01-12-103 12:35:55 If I can get/find an email API for sending emails - not hard at all. 01-12-103 12:36:12 And I need that email API anyway to correctly handle content input via email 01-12-103 12:37:12 Does GORD and wdl have DB2 client installed? 01-12-103 12:37:46 I've *got* DB2, but it's not installed. Yet?? 01-12-103 12:40:02 wdl, what version of DB/2 do you have? 01-12-103 12:40:25 Um. Version 7?? sound 'bout right?? 01-12-103 12:40:40 The last? freebie. 01-12-103 12:41:40 that sounds about right 01-12-103 12:42:50 There are two categories of changes/input to the database 01-12-103 12:42:51 I do not have DB2 installed. 01-12-103 12:43:16 1) structure tables - which control the categories of data and how the site is layed out 01-12-103 12:43:20 2) the content itself 01-12-103 12:43:32 #2 - is input by the general user 01-12-103 12:43:51 #1 is input/changed only by "special" users - meaning GORD and wdl to start 01-12-103 12:44:17 I plan on doing the #1 editor using DB2 client at first - to speed up getting something on line 01-12-103 12:44:34 #2 changers will always be via email/web/ftp 01-12-103 12:44:41 It would be useful for us to have that "structure table" 01-12-103 12:45:10 Send me your email in a private chat and I will email it to you now - what i have at least 01-12-103 12:45:12 That is, a listing of it's content 01-12-103 12:45:27 GORD - you have v 5 client don't you? 01-12-103 12:45:36 Yes 01-12-103 12:45:55 Do you ahve an extra 50 MB or some to install it? 01-12-103 12:46:04 I plan to put it on 01-12-103 12:46:40 If you have any problems - email me 01-12-103 12:46:43 Yes, 50 MB at least. 01-12-103 12:47:08 I'm squeezed at present, but will add 60Gb "real soon now". I've got the drive in hand. 01-12-103 12:47:26 OK 01-12-103 12:47:45 wdl - before you install v 7 client, let me check something out. I am thinking that v 7 client will not talk to v 5 database 01-12-103 12:47:49 Doug, OK 01-12-103 12:48:20 Ooops. I have to wait anyway. Moving systems 'round is dicey sometimes. 01-12-103 12:48:51 I *think* I've got v.6 as well... 01-12-103 12:49:10 v 6 client will work. If you want I will send simplified instructions 01-12-103 12:49:23 Oooh! Please do! 01-12-103 12:50:20 send me your email address 01-12-103 12:50:56 You can get it from my web page: http://pws.prserv.net/wdl/wdl.htm 01-12-103 12:51:01 oh walter - here is one more place we have to strip the emails from 01-12-103 12:51:05 ok thanks 01-12-103 12:51:29 It's not clickable. You have to read it, or mostly cut/past should work. It's a "blocked" line in the HTML. 01-12-103 12:51:39 Doug: your web page? 01-12-103 12:52:18 I don't have a web page 01-12-103 12:52:38 Where do we have to strip emails from, then? 01-12-103 12:53:15 ok wdl - I have it. BTW do you have a real name? (that you want to reveal) 01-12-103 12:53:45 Never mind - I see it. ooops 01-12-103 12:54:00 Answer to bill, usually. Full name's on the web page. 01-12-103 12:54:53 Hmm "on the web page" = on the vanity page . 01-12-103 12:57:49 Bill and Gord: Do you have any additional questions? 01-12-103 12:58:01 Yes. 01-12-103 12:58:56 I take the HCL's finest use to be helpful with *current* problems. Current info is all *over* the newsgroups. 01-12-103 12:59:27 But often it's sketchy. Requires personal contact to get everything "we" might need. 01-12-103 13:00:08 Then the issue of permissions from info-holders. Do we need to get "releases", if "we" do the gleaning? 01-12-103 13:00:08 Don't forget users with old hardware. (like Sector and me.) 01-12-103 13:00:44 Not forgetting. *Nothing* should be discarded. I started with old hardware. *Real* old! 01-12-103 13:01:21 We should at least get permission to put there contact info in there (ie: email address) 01-12-103 13:01:55 Often my problems are motherboards that are too old (or new) for the hard drives I try to use with them. :-( 01-12-103 13:02:24 The issue of linking to established sites: Link or not? How 'bout checking the currency of linked info? 01-12-103 13:02:26 There are ways to fix that 01-12-103 13:03:26 My opinion is: we should ALWAYS store the data ourselves, and link it appropriate. But it we don't store the data/info ourselves, it will go away 01-12-103 13:03:26 Is there a way to check the links automatically every so often? 01-12-103 13:03:45 That could be an administrative nightmare. 01-12-103 13:04:03 Checking automatically, I mean. 01-12-103 13:04:04 There is software which does that I think 01-12-103 13:04:30 Doug: "store ourselves" ? Uh. Like all of Dr.Martinus? 01-12-103 13:04:31 I agree with Doug. 01-12-103 13:05:05 The problem is finding the current location. I run into this frquently with IBM links. They keep changing things. Best to have a local copy as Doug suggests 01-12-103 13:05:14 Sorry - who is Dr Martinus? 01-12-103 13:05:21 We stored all of WarpCast until they quit. I doubt that Dr. Martinus would present a big problem. 01-12-103 13:05:21 Of course then it won't be updated. 01-12-103 13:05:41 Doug: *Huge* site dealing with notebooks mostly. 01-12-103 13:05:43 NoteBook/2 Site 01-12-103 13:05:53 Doug: note book felow 01-12-103 13:06:21 MAD - store data and have link. When link breaks, we have the data 01-12-103 13:06:41 That's probably the best. 01-12-103 13:07:02 Sort of like with Google, where they cache the original 01-12-103 13:07:04 When the link break's, notify wdl or Gord. 01-12-103 13:07:06 Have a link both to our copy (cached) of the data and the "live" site. 01-12-103 13:07:09 Of course we have not have stored the very latest data before the link goes away. But something is usually better than nothing 01-12-103 13:07:27 Hmmm, we could store a current copy 01-12-103 13:07:33 What did we say? 01-12-103 13:07:35 sector - best idea yet 01-12-103 13:08:26 If we can develop a suitable, efficient algorithm then I like Sector's idea as well. 01-12-103 13:11:04 Gord and wdl: What do you think of Sector's idea of saving current data? 01-12-103 13:11:28 'Nother Q.: Is the current HCL input form covering all the info we'd like? I'd like some "reading" on that issue. 01-12-103 13:11:48 Walter: Good to save current data. 01-12-103 13:12:01 Yes 01-12-103 13:12:30 wdl: In addition to current data, I think it would be good to save the link, and date of current data. 01-12-103 13:12:32 Concern over "input" data as guide, 'cause of all the inter connected driver issues, Warp-levels, .. All that. 01-12-103 13:13:01 date current data was retrieved. 01-12-103 13:13:04 Walter: "save link..." Yes. 01-12-103 13:13:22 "retrieved" ... yes. 01-12-103 13:14:01 What does the rest of the group think? 01-12-103 13:15:24 Be nice to have an optional field for the actual date of the driver itself 01-12-103 13:16:46 chipset if it's avaible also 01-12-103 13:17:20 thats on hardware only 01-12-103 13:17:26 Maybe "required" driver date? Some are updated nearly weekly, it seems. 01-12-103 13:22:12 Should we have only the latest driver or a version history of drivers? I ask this since some of the newest IBM drivers (like USB) are subscription only, but there were older free versions, or freeware open source versions. 01-12-103 13:23:29 Should keep an archive of the various version (those that are publicly available) 01-12-103 13:23:34 Maybe not "version history", in the sense of a file or a list, but related drivers. 01-12-103 13:23:50 There are some types of drives where the newer versions do not work as well as the older versions, so I think we should keep/link multiple versions 01-12-103 13:23:59 Related issue: Which Warp/eCs version does "it" work on -- is entirely missing from input forms?? 01-12-103 13:24:57 Well, then it definitely should be added. That is critical information. 01-12-103 13:25:01 Hmmm, it was supposed to be there 01-12-103 13:25:20 Definitely need that 01-12-103 13:26:20 Need version, fixpak level, "recommended" base device updates, etc. 01-12-103 13:28:06 But those should be optional 01-12-103 13:28:19 except for version 01-12-103 13:28:23 Version tested on should be there 01-12-103 13:28:59 Fixpak level is critical, I think. 01-12-103 13:29:45 FP-15 vs. lower = whole different critter?? 01-12-103 13:30:04 for somethings, but for other things it doesn't matter. 01-12-103 13:30:35 Might matter a lot to the info-seeker. 01-12-103 13:30:53 The kernel was changed in FP-13, and refined in FP-14, I believe. 01-12-103 13:31:16 In that sense, there is a major difference. 01-12-103 13:31:20 Only if it is relevent 01-12-103 13:31:53 Most drivers don't care what FP level, or even version. 01-12-103 13:32:02 Submitters aren't likely to know every version it works on, need a tested version field 01-12-103 13:32:27 That's sorta what I meant... 01-12-103 13:32:34 I suggest FP # be left out, unless driver docs specify it. 01-12-103 13:32:48 Optional field, should be there if needed 01-12-103 13:32:52 driver or other software. 01-12-103 13:33:05 right. 01-12-103 13:33:29 For example, LotusW4 states it will only run on Warp 4 FP 1. 01-12-103 13:33:39 and higher. :-) 01-12-103 13:34:10 For a driver example, SDD says FP5 I believe. 01-12-103 13:34:40 Sounds Familiar. 01-12-103 13:34:52 There's also how LVM's various incarnations treat the way HDs arranged on the buss. 01-12-103 13:35:47 wdl: Can you give an example? 01-12-103 13:35:58 I'm happy enough for now. I can read 'tween the lines for much of whatever else I wanted. Gord?? 01-12-103 13:36:06 LVM?? 01-12-103 13:36:17 right. 01-12-103 13:37:08 Yes. LVM from MCP-2 sees the buss differently from how that in NCP-1 sees it. An issue that IBM knows about. 01-12-103 13:37:23 What's the next step for us? 01-12-103 13:37:43 Makes it hard to boot, when required software is on different drives. 01-12-103 13:38:12 wdl: think I may have run into that one. :-( 01-12-103 13:38:31 Gord - I hope to have something out for our internal use shortly - meaning next week or two. 01-12-103 13:38:57 I will send you and wdl an email when that happens. You can look at it and tell me where I am wrong 01-12-103 13:39:01 and we will go from there 01-12-103 13:39:12 It's *that* issue which keeps me stuck on MCP-1. And why I'm swapping systems 'round on my three drives. 01-12-103 13:39:13 something out - something for inputing data 01-12-103 13:39:22 Gord: Can you and Bill put together a list of the fields, and the types (required, etc.) for next week? 01-12-103 13:39:49 IOW, a first draft of the form. 01-12-103 13:40:04 I'll try. Gord? 01-12-103 13:40:13 Without the html stuff, of course. :-) 01-12-103 13:41:55 OK 01-12-103 13:42:06 OK 01-12-103 13:42:18 Ok, let's move on. 01-12-103 13:42:27 A1b 01-12-103 13:42:43 Mirror/Co-Host Project-Ken 01-12-103 13:51:02 KenKrchnr, do you happen to have a DNS server¿ 01-12-103 13:51:08 Ken Kirchner is here, and has set up a test mirror of WarpDoctor on his computer at work. 01-12-103 13:51:51 Yes, I do, but its only internal. To do what you are thinking would require a full DNS. 01-12-103 13:52:32 Ken: I wish Jeremy were here to tell you what you need to know about virtual hosting. :-( 01-12-103 13:52:44 Yup, was also thinking about the DNS server for the VOICE server if we move it. That means we'll need the DNS hosted elsewhere 01-12-103 13:53:09 I can map to other hosts internally, but the port 80 stuff can only go to one machine. 01-12-103 13:53:39 great! is the mirror going to be for the whole voice site or just WD? 01-12-103 13:53:39 Ken - do you have two IP addresses for that machine? 01-12-103 13:53:44 Only got the one IP address¿ 01-12-103 13:53:57 Sector, if we go to full T1 we'd have multiple IP and then could use the full DNS capability. 01-12-103 13:54:26 Ok then 01-12-103 13:54:59 Sector/Ken - if you go TI and have multiple IP addresses, wouldn't it be better to assign a different IP address to VOICE and to WD 01-12-103 13:55:00 awesome! 01-12-103 13:55:19 No need to 01-12-103 13:55:22 Yes, that woulld be the way to do it. 01-12-103 13:55:39 Could be done but wouldn't be required 01-12-103 13:55:50 I would solve the web explorer not working problem 01-12-103 13:56:24 Sector, if there's only 1 IP we'd still need something like the IP/warpdoctor, IP/voice gizmo. 01-12-103 13:57:22 Set up as mapping to 1 host, different port? 01-12-103 13:57:26 By making use of Apache's virtual hosting capability? 01-12-103 13:57:40 Right now there's one IP assigned to the VOICE server, both sites have the same IP 01-12-103 13:58:19 Sector, can you show Ken what he needs to do on his machine? 01-12-103 13:58:38 having WebExplorer able to access the site I think is important 01-12-103 13:59:00 there are a few warp 3 users out there 01-12-103 13:59:09 I'm a firm believer in backward compatibility. 01-12-103 13:59:13 * Sector is using WebExplorer with WSeB 01-12-103 13:59:34 I can set up Apache multi host, to mirror the other sites. 01-12-103 14:01:46 B. New Business 01-12-103 14:02:20 1a/b DB2 Engine or WD Plugin 01-12-103 14:02:43 Doug: Do you have an update for us? 01-12-103 14:03:08 I heard that os2.org was having problems running DB2 on JFS partition 01-12-103 14:03:30 Do you have any specifics? 01-12-103 14:03:31 is db2 on voice1 on a JFS? 01-12-103 14:03:39 Started on an "editor" for inputing/changing database data in DrRexx 01-12-103 14:03:43 Appears os2.org and os2world.com are still having problems staying up 01-12-103 14:03:52 no...just what was posted on the site 01-12-103 14:03:58 Switfched yesterday to VX-Rexx because of limitations in DrRexx 01-12-103 14:04:14 Hoping to have something for GORD/wdl/etc to use soon. 01-12-103 14:04:26 Then will start on form/process for "normal" users 01-12-103 14:04:26 Are you going to have Copyright problems? 01-12-103 14:04:39 me? Copyright problems? 01-12-103 14:05:42 I thought Kim had problems using VX-Rexx because it was proprietory, but not being developed any more. ? 01-12-103 14:06:08 We should have no copyright problems because the license for VX-Rexx allows for distributing VROBJ.DLL to any and all users 01-12-103 14:06:30 OK, good. 01-12-103 14:06:31 And most have it already ;) 01-12-103 14:06:50 * Sector has it 01-12-103 14:06:54 Kim wanted to include VX-Rexx in eCS as a development package. Anyone that already has a license for VX-Rexx can still use it to build applications 01-12-103 14:07:14 Thanks for the clarification. 01-12-103 14:07:26 In fact VROBJ.DLL in included in the eCS install. It is used by WiseMachine. Since WiseMachine is written in VX-Rexx 01-12-103 14:08:21 DrRexx/DrDialog is great. And I dearly love them - but VX-Rexx is more capable. 01-12-103 14:08:27 OK, Doug, anything else about your project? 01-12-103 14:08:34 nope 01-12-103 14:08:57 OK, I'm glad your work is proceding well. 01-12-103 14:09:29 Does KenKrchnr have DB2 install in his server? 01-12-103 14:10:02 I'm getting anxious to put *something* online as soon as we can to garner interest and support from os/2 users at large. 01-12-103 14:10:37 The work on the forms we have discussed today is good step in that direction. 01-12-103 14:10:46 No, tht I don't have. 01-12-103 14:11:24 Ummm, I have an older ver (4?) of DB/2 Personal. 01-12-103 14:12:33 KenKrchnr: you develop os/2 software? 01-12-103 14:12:58 Not really, mostly DOS stuff for work 01-12-103 14:13:22 Though I do have eBayWatch/2 01-12-103 14:13:34 Website for what? 01-12-103 14:14:21 Well, it's way past quitting time, so I'll entertain a motion for adjournment. 01-12-103 14:14:52 move to adjorn 01-12-103 14:14:59 Of course, adjournment doesn't mean the room gets locked up and you have to go away. :-) 01-12-103 14:16:54 All in favour of the motion, type Aye. 01-12-103 14:16:55 Aye 01-12-103 14:17:03 Seconds the Aye ;) 01-12-103 14:17:15 Aye 01-12-103 14:17:21 Aye 01-12-103 14:20:30 Thank you everyone for coming!