06-16-102 15:06:32 This meeting of WarpDoctor is now in session. 06-16-102 15:10:39 Agenda Item: 3 06-16-102 15:11:34 I was going to just include the stuff we didn't get done last week, but then I decided it would be better to have it all in context. 06-16-102 15:13:52 The italicized part of Item 3: Apache upgrade is what we more or less got done last week. 06-16-102 15:17:26 It's been annotated because I wanted to put today's discussion in it's context. 06-16-102 15:17:38 Italics mean we already covered it. :-) 06-16-102 15:18:20 OK. Agenda Item 3: Apache Upgrade 06-16-102 15:18:39 Sections a&b. 06-16-102 15:19:13 Are there any questions or clarifications anyone would like. 06-16-102 15:19:48 If you weren't here last week, please don't ask us to go through the whole post-mortem again. :-) 06-16-102 15:26:19 Agenda Item 3c: Different ways to access remotely. 06-16-102 15:27:35 We really appreciate our relationship with Internet Walkabout and their willingness to help out, specifically by rebooting the server. 06-16-102 15:27:38 any progress in SSH? 06-16-102 15:27:39 well SSHD is the only option that I can see.. but as said last week.. it's not a complete solution 06-16-102 15:27:57 Prefereably We should be able to do this ourselves. 06-16-102 15:27:58 somethings you just have to have access to the desktop 06-16-102 15:28:42 also like I said before.. Abel has it set up on VOICE1.. just need to contact him about adding users 06-16-102 15:28:45 As we mentioned last week, SSH (Secure Shell) provides an encrypted commandline interface to the server. 06-16-102 15:29:29 With that we send commands or start low-level system programs. These are not possible with DTOC. 06-16-102 15:30:08 not possible with DTOC? 06-16-102 15:30:21 To send command line commands currently, we have to use an unencrpyted channel . 06-16-102 15:30:51 RS: If it's possible with DTOC, why do we want SSH? 06-16-102 15:31:34 So SSH doesn't provide additional functionality? 06-16-102 15:33:40 Once you signed in it is just like ordinary telnet. 06-16-102 15:33:53 what about pM stuff 06-16-102 15:34:22 WarpedOS2, thats why SSH isn't a complete solution 06-16-102 15:34:51 What about NETOP 06-16-102 15:35:08 SSH just gives you CLI access... but some things in OS/2 just aren't possible without desktop access 06-16-102 15:35:46 I personally think NetOP would be worth trying.. it certianly couldn't be any worse than DTOC 06-16-102 15:35:50 netop is Like DTOC but much better control and security and it is not a piece of Crap. 06-16-102 15:36:43 I used it but requires both Server and client software setup...and of course licensing issues...which cost $$$ 06-16-102 15:37:38 NEt op is more real when connected...and very responsive..I have used it but just could not afford it at the time.. 06-16-102 15:38:08 NETOP = $$ DTOC=free 06-16-102 15:38:27 DTOC isn't free... or is it? 06-16-102 15:38:34 You get perfect functionality with NETOP....hey I gotta run...a caching server just went down...bbl 06-16-102 15:38:44 with eCS DTOC is free 06-16-102 15:38:55 Exactly. 06-16-102 15:38:56 VOICE1 is not running eCS 06-16-102 15:39:12 So they you must have purchased the software....hmmm 06-16-102 15:39:17 VOICE1 contains DTOC. 06-16-102 15:39:37 someone paid for it I guess 06-16-102 15:39:40 RS: You know VOICE1 has DTOC installed. 06-16-102 15:39:57 Gotta run....but NET op is our only real alternative...and it works with no hickups...etc...just $$$ issue.. 06-16-102 15:40:15 yes.. DTOC is installed on VOICE1... thought everyone knows that 06-16-102 15:40:27 each member that needs to connect must have come software loaded on own wkstn I believe.. 06-16-102 16:02:02 Maybe we can start with a question. Why did we spend such a large chunk of time last week talking about SSH if it isn't a solution for us? 06-16-102 16:03:09 SSH is a partial solution.. it won't phase of DTOC or any other tool that allows us access to the GUI 06-16-102 16:03:30 Walter - I think SSH is an excellent solution for us. I will enable us to do most things on the server without using DTOC. We will have to, or want to, use DTOC for those things what require are are easier with a PM interface 06-16-102 16:03:34 SSH would allow us to reboot VOICE1 if needed 06-16-102 16:03:55 It sounds to me like you're saying SSH and DTOC both will do command lines (cli's) but you just like SSH better. Am I right? 06-16-102 16:04:04 The question about SSH is can we whatever is needed from Abel to allow everyone access using SSH that needs it. 06-16-102 16:04:45 Yes - both will do command lines - but SSH will be faster, plus there are times when I cann't get the desktop to appear using DTOC - which means I can't get to the command prompt 06-16-102 16:04:45 I don't know about SSH being a solution "most things" .. but you could definately do quiet a bit 06-16-102 16:05:33 DTOC uses SSL so it should be secure, like SSH. But using SSH avoids all the overhead that comes with DTOC - lke invoking the Java VM, etc. 06-16-102 16:06:07 I would agree with you if we were talking about a *nix server 06-16-102 16:06:58 RS: Could you layout a brief "chart" about the Pro's and Con's for DTOC, SSH, and NetOp? 06-16-102 16:08:02 I'm just saying... a lot of stuff can be done at the CLI... but also theres tasks that you need access to the GUI 06-16-102 16:08:53 very true - examples being: administering TCP/IP, FTPD, etc. 06-16-102 16:09:29 Walter.. SSH only gives you access to a command prompt 06-16-102 16:09:49 Doug, RS: My goal right now is to try to evaluate the three competing products. 06-16-102 16:10:49 Seems you need both - DTOC and SSH. They aren't really competing products, but rather complimentary 06-16-102 16:11:06 either way.. SSH is a good idea in it's reliablity... if we can't access DTOC, NetOP, or whatever we use.. you can reboot the system from the CLI with SSH 06-16-102 16:12:02 Does anyone have a price on NetOp? 06-16-102 16:13:15 would be easy enough to find out.. but I think we need to contact them about a preview to see if it fits our needs.. just tell them, if we like it we may buy up to 5 client licenses 06-16-102 16:14:03 that would probably be enough to entice them into letting us preview the software 06-16-102 16:15:33 If SSH were available to use, is DTOC bad enough to justify looking for a replacement? 06-16-102 16:15:47 I know that all my stuff could be done through SSH 06-16-102 16:16:33 do you have any idea how many times someone has had to call to have the server restarted because DTOC locked it up? 06-16-102 16:16:52 You can download a trial version from their site. 06-16-102 16:18:36 I didn't count, but it was a lot. :-( 06-16-102 16:20:17 I've seen the price of NetOp and it isn't cheap. 06-16-102 16:21:03 As I mentioned last week, John Edwards has used both NetOp and DTOC and he says NetOp is only slightly faster that DTOC. 06-16-102 16:21:37 Do we want to spend a lot of money on a marginally faster program? 06-16-102 16:21:46 faster isn't the issue.. stability is 06-16-102 16:22:03 I guess part of the answer lies in how well is it written. 06-16-102 16:22:19 I don't know the answer to that. 06-16-102 16:22:44 No to complicate the issue - but Netop and DTOC aren't the only contenders for remote desktop access 06-16-102 16:23:09 thats why we need to test it.. and see if it crashes like DTOC does 06-16-102 16:24:15 ok so lets hear the other options 06-16-102 16:24:37 As head of WarpDoctor, I'll order the trial kit, and tell them we might be interested in a 1 host and 5 client system provided it checks out. Once I get it, I'll send it to RS. 06-16-102 16:24:50 Sound OK? 06-16-102 16:25:10 fine by me 06-16-102 16:25:53 Doug, you said all your stuff could be done through SSH. Right? 06-16-102 16:27:51 And SSH is strictly a command shell product, is that right? 06-16-102 16:28:02 like i'm not aware of a way to add users for FTP and stuff without access the TCP/Ip Configuration notebook 06-16-102 16:29:46 Actually - everything in DB2 can be done from the command line, or the command processor - which is command line oriented. 06-16-102 16:30:22 TCP/IP can actually be remotely administered from a client machine without logging on to the server, but it is probably easier just to use DTOC 06-16-102 16:30:44 UPM can be done by command line - but is another example that is probably easier with DTOC. 06-16-102 16:30:58 Apache is mostly editing configuration files 06-16-102 16:34:54 I wonder - if most people did NOT use DTOC (like me 'cause I could use SSH) if DTOC would continue to be a significant problem 06-16-102 16:35:13 if I wanted to do that I would just throw a OS/2 port of pico on there 06-16-102 16:35:15 And even if it is, you might not need 5 clients for NETOP 06-16-102 16:35:59 - if that helps keep down the costs 06-16-102 16:36:39 or better yet.. VI :) 06-16-102 16:36:41 I found the prices. 06-16-102 16:36:53 Is everyone seated firmly? 06-16-102 16:38:20 1 guest 1 host = 187.85 USD 06-16-102 16:38:58 1 guest 10 hosts = 684.40 USD 06-16-102 16:39:14 ouch! 06-16-102 16:39:28 I don't know if that can be shipped electronically. 06-16-102 16:40:03 They don't have anything between 1 and 10. :-( 06-16-102 16:40:20 There are alternatives: Lucent Labs in UK makes a freeware remote control product that I believe has an OS/2 server 06-16-102 16:40:51 And I seem to remember a couple of commercial products that do remote control 06-16-102 16:41:05 Plus IBM used to have a non-java remote control thingy 06-16-102 16:41:43 Remember we are looking for stability (IOW quality). 06-16-102 16:42:06 I can't speak to that on any of them. 06-16-102 16:44:20 ahh I think we'll be ok if we can get ssh logins 06-16-102 16:44:54 like I said... VOICE1 can be reboot in a SSH session.. setboot /b 06-16-102 16:45:10 Anyone remember HyperACCESS Pro for OS/2 with HyperHost? 06-16-102 16:45:15 Or KopyKat? 06-16-102 16:45:46 hyperaccess pro is a telnet client i know that much 06-16-102 16:45:53 I've used them quite a bit and they are certainly stable; not very fast though. 06-16-102 16:46:28 Is Kopykat remote desktop ? 06-16-102 16:54:06 KopyKat started as a file-transfer, but Hilgraeve begain to add remote desktop features. 06-16-102 16:55:49 ]I think we shouls drop the dtoc replacement idea for now.. and get ssh logins 06-16-102 16:56:46 seems to me the alternatives are either old.. or expensive 06-16-102 16:58:50 HyperAccess Pro is the real Remote Desktop product. 06-16-102 16:59:17 Price is $130 USD ea. 06-16-102 16:59:45 Each package appears to contain one host and one "guest" 06-16-102 17:00:22 You don't have to run both: you can install whichever you choose, or both. 06-16-102 17:00:56 More expensive for 10; cheaper for 5. 06-16-102 17:02:26 NetOp is newer technology so it's probably better and faster--if we want to pay that much for it. :-) 06-16-102 17:03:20 Is that the one with the trial package? 06-16-102 17:03:30 Correct. 06-16-102 17:03:48 So we can test it for free. 06-16-102 17:04:14 check the stability. 06-16-102 17:05:18 well yeah this way we could see if it would be worth throwing out the big bucks for 06-16-102 17:07:26 Would HyperAccess Lite give an accurate indication of speed and stability for the Pro version? 06-16-102 17:08:15 No. HALite is a simple terminal program. 06-16-102 17:08:19 Maybe Netop fellows would give us a deal as a non profit org... 06-16-102 17:10:13 HA Pro works much like DTOC, and it will upload and download files. 06-16-102 17:11:30 Hmmm...where can we see the product or get a demo? I would not mind trying it.. is there a client and server component or just run the app? 06-16-102 17:12:38 There is a client and server component. The package comes with both. 06-16-102 17:13:56 I'm not sure HA Pro transmissions were or could be encrypted. 06-16-102 17:14:20 There is another possibility re NetOp. 06-16-102 17:14:29 ok...well...if it is better than DTOC then a trial would be inorder which ever is cheaper...I know How netop works and it is quick and clean...never had any issues using it...just a bit pricy 06-16-102 17:15:19 You can buy individual NetOp Guest licences at $127 ea. 06-16-102 17:15:33 but sounds like any option is going to cost...just which product is what we want...it will just cost each client to connect 06-16-102 17:20:58 We probably want 3: Jeremy, Doug, and me or Bill Rook. So we probably need to buy 2 more. 06-16-102 17:21:16 Although we might be able to scrape by on 2 guests. 06-16-102 17:21:21 I can get by without one 06-16-102 17:21:54 Bill is local to the machine, isn't he? 06-16-102 17:22:31 Well we'll all need one at times. The question is what's the maximum number of users and how often will that occur. 06-16-102 17:22:43 (I guess that two questions.) 06-16-102 17:23:14 Can more that one connect at a time? 06-16-102 17:23:34 Doug: If he's there. :-) That's why I shared one between me and him. :-) 06-16-102 17:23:54 Good point 06-16-102 17:24:19 We can probably start out with one additional guest licence + the initial package. 06-16-102 17:24:40 That would give us the host + 2 guest licences. 06-16-102 17:25:42 However, the first thing we should do, IMO, is get the trial, and bang it to death. It's a fully operational, time-limited demo. 06-16-102 17:26:22 Probably 30-days time limit. 06-16-102 17:26:59 We do need to get SSH access also 06-16-102 17:27:26 yep.. we do 06-16-102 17:36:26 RS: Do you want to download the SSH and install it in VOICE1? 06-16-102 17:36:40 Or is it already there? 06-16-102 17:37:09 SSH is already on VOICE1 06-16-102 17:37:43 just need to get Abel to add users 06-16-102 17:37:47 OK, do you want to set up some protocols so we can practice accessing it. 06-16-102 17:38:18 what do you mean? 06-16-102 17:38:35 OK, how do I use SSH on VOICE1? 06-16-102 17:39:00 Assuming I have SSH installed here, or course. 06-16-102 17:39:34 well.. you could use ZOC to access it I believe 06-16-102 17:39:37 I presume I need a URL, username, password, etc. 06-16-102 17:39:51 I'm not going to use ZOC! 06-16-102 17:40:14 It's too expensive, and I have a bone to pick with the author. 06-16-102 17:40:59 RS: if you re-installed SSHD would that bypass Abel and the user ID issue? 06-16-102 17:41:10 I'll either get that one or the one at os2.ru. 06-16-102 17:41:15 Doug, I'm not going to do that. 06-16-102 17:41:42 I'll e-mail abel 06-16-102 17:42:29 RS: I have the SSH client from Hobbes installed. I want to use it to access VOICE1. 06-16-102 17:42:34 What do I do? 06-16-102 17:43:25 I've not used it myself.. except on Abel's machine... it's probably something like this: ssh os2voice.org 06-16-102 17:43:57 Well, that's what I mean by protocol: procedure for using. :-) 06-16-102 17:43:58 Abel had his rigged up with a icon 06-16-102 17:44:31 Could you figure that out, or set it up, and email us? 06-16-102 17:44:33 you clicked it and it automagically connected to VOICE1 06-16-102 17:44:50 I presume there are passwords and usernames involved. 06-16-102 17:45:02 yes there are 06-16-102 17:45:16 RS, you hav to type your PW :-) 06-16-102 17:46:23 RS: Can you give Doug and me usernames and temporary passwords and include that info in the email, please? 06-16-102 17:46:45 thing is.. I've not had to do the remote admin thing much.. ' 06-16-102 17:46:58 Can you learn? 06-16-102 17:47:18 Or would you like someone else to do it? 06-16-102 17:47:26 of course... I've always used telnetd set up only to be accessed on the local net 06-16-102 17:48:24 We're getting away from telnet stuff because it's not secure from what you told me, right? 06-16-102 17:48:39 Bill Rook doesn't like it. 06-16-102 17:48:55 telnet sends everything in plain text.. even passwords 06-16-102 17:49:21 what I was saying there.. Ihad telnetd setup to only be accessable on my local network 06-16-102 17:50:27 Someone move for adjournment. 06-16-102 17:50:44 I will look into what we need to know for ssh... 06-16-102 17:50:51 SO MOVED 06-16-102 17:50:51 * Rat-Salad moves 06-16-102 17:51:07 All in favour, type Aye. 06-16-102 17:51:08 aye 06-16-102 17:51:10 Aye 06-16-102 17:51:11 Aye 06-16-102 17:51:23 aye 06-16-102 17:51:32 Meeting adjourned