04-28-102 12:11:51 This meeting of WarpDoctor is hereby called to order. 04-28-102 12:13:00 Walter - is the agenda on the web site? 04-28-102 12:14:14 The agenda is located at http://www.warpdoctor.org/agendas/warpdoc_2002-04-28.html 04-28-102 12:14:54 Thanks 04-28-102 12:15:15 * Walter notes that all the agendas for these meetings are at http://www.warpdoctor.org/agendas/ 04-28-102 12:16:45 Agenda Item 2: Sector: May I assume you're taking the log? 04-28-102 12:16:51 You may so assume 04-28-102 12:17:03 Thank you. :-) 04-28-102 12:20:19 We really only have one item on the agenda, but it's a very important one. Doug will be presenting his first draft of the database interface. 04-28-102 12:20:33 Agenda Item 3: New Business 04-28-102 12:20:54 a. Doug's DB development. 04-28-102 12:21:20 I saw the screenshots. 04-28-102 12:21:21 I hope you've taken the time to read Doug's email and screenshots. :-) 04-28-102 12:21:57 At this point, I think I'll turn the meeting over to Doug. 04-28-102 12:22:34 I sent you all screen shots of the portion that is running because I was a little nervous about 04-28-102 12:22:47 putting it up on VOICE 1 right now - considering Apache 04-28-102 12:22:50 Doug, if you could go through your model, then it would be easier for us to comment on it as you went. 04-28-102 12:23:22 The part that I sent you was JUST the administration part. This will be visible only to the 04-28-102 12:23:30 site administrators 04-28-102 12:23:44 The part the users will see is very different 04-28-102 12:24:18 Site administrators: That implies more than one. 04-28-102 12:24:19 For the "normal" users - I was going down the path of frames and a javascript based menu structure 04-28-102 12:24:40 but I believe that in our last meeting there was a ground swell of opposition to that method 04-28-102 12:25:04 So having rethought it, I am planning on no frames - with web explorer as the standard 04-28-102 12:25:22 Clear so far? 04-28-102 12:25:32 One question. 04-28-102 12:25:58 What is a site administrator:--I gather there is more than one. 04-28-102 12:26:34 Right now we have a few. Wilson and I are database administrators. Jeremy is the web site administrator 04-28-102 12:26:50 Able and Wilson are the machine administrators 04-28-102 12:27:08 OK. 04-28-102 12:27:15 I understand. 04-28-102 12:27:34 For this purpose - the database and web site administrator really cross roles - or become much of the same person 04-28-102 12:27:43 since everything is stored in the database. 04-28-102 12:29:03 Please continue with your main discussion. :-) 04-28-102 12:29:58 So the screen shots you have are for the part that will be access by relatively few people - may Wilson, Walter, Jeremy, Able, myself, ??? 04-28-102 12:30:10 And whoever takes over for us when we move on. 04-28-102 12:30:49 If you want to get a feel for the administration notebook you can try 32.102.170.67\home.html 04-28-102 12:31:04 at least until I disconnect. 04-28-102 12:31:52 For the database part - we must make sure that DB2 is running, in order for pages to display 04-28-102 12:32:26 and we need to insure that it is backed up. The only other maintenance is an occassionaly reorg and running of stats for the query optimizer 04-28-102 12:33:15 For the connection manager we need to make sure that it is running, and that we have the proper number of sessions started 04-28-102 12:34:15 Sorry - the password to get to the notebook is user id demo, password letmein 04-28-102 12:34:45 You are going through dial-up so the performance will not be the best 04-28-102 12:35:30 None of the DB2 screens are enable or work - and my machine here is a DB2 client anyway 04-28-102 12:35:45 The Connection managers start/stop and status screens work 04-28-102 12:35:51 The cookies screen works 04-28-102 12:36:14 To start the connection manager the user ID is ADMIN0 (last character zero) 04-28-102 12:36:26 the password is zer0 (the last character is zero) 04-28-102 12:36:42 The dsn should say WARPDOC 04-28-102 12:37:00 and the number of start sessions should be greater than zero 04-28-102 12:37:39 Anyway the top tables that people might be editing directly are the users table - which stores each user id assigned by the system 04-28-102 12:38:00 and the menu table - which stores the structure (but not the content) of the pages 04-28-102 12:38:32 Doug are multiple people allowed to access the same table? 04-28-102 12:39:20 BTW, I think the Cookies screen is a great idea. 04-28-102 12:39:34 Yes - although if both are editing the same row in the table last change wins 04-28-102 12:40:22 To refresh on the user ids - the user will be able to create there own user id in order to add new content to the site 04-28-102 12:40:39 we are using the user id to allow only the person that created the content to change it. 04-28-102 12:40:53 We might want to going in and edit or remove a user id from the table though 04-28-102 12:41:25 The menu table is a result of rethinking the pages (i.e. no frames) 04-28-102 12:41:30 I think we need to be careful about having multiple people accessing the same table/row. 04-28-102 12:41:46 Maybe some locking mechanism should be used. 04-28-102 12:42:09 For content (page content) only the person that created the row will be able to change it 04-28-102 12:42:33 OK, that's good. 04-28-102 12:42:49 For administrators getting at the users, etc. tables - there probably won't be enough people administrating at the same time for that to be a problem 04-28-102 12:43:04 However _ I will look at some locking scheme 04-28-102 12:43:55 Previously I had the content and menu structure designed to be in one table 04-28-102 12:43:56 Perhaps DB2 has some built-in locking ability we could selectively "turn on". I don't know, I'm just wondering. 04-28-102 12:44:44 DB2 does - but because of the way http and CGI works - we aren't actually "connected" to the database while making changes 04-28-102 12:44:53 Ah. 04-28-102 12:45:08 The data is downloaded to the browser and the user is disconnected from the database, until he submits changes 04-28-102 12:45:20 =OperServ= Advanced flood detected from [webbirc@elx1-interjet2Mb-136-32.medtelecom.net], offender GLINEd. 04-28-102 12:45:21 The a connection is remade to the database and the changes are sent it 04-28-102 12:45:24 in 04-28-102 12:45:30 OK, I had forgotten. 04-28-102 12:45:59 Each time someone clicks on a link in the site -say to go from the home page to the page on Software 04-28-102 12:46:25 a CGI program is started up- that program connects to the database, the database retrieves the row to the CGI program 04-28-102 12:46:44 and the CGI program formats that as HTML and sends it back to the browser. 04-28-102 12:47:05 This happens basically every time anything is clicked on in the site 04-28-102 12:47:31 This is why I thought it was important to speed up the database connection process 04-28-102 12:48:27 Putting the menu sstructure in the same table as the content was ok when we were going 04-28-102 12:48:59 to have the menus reside in an html/javascript file - since one could transverse through the menus without ever making a hit on the database 04-28-102 12:49:43 But changing to having the menus also served from the database - I want to separate the menu structure into a table 04-28-102 12:50:10 that is small enough it can be store in the DB2 buffers (i.e. in memory) 04-28-102 12:50:22 so I change the design. 04-28-102 12:50:52 It is that menu table that administrators will want to edit to create a new category or menu item for the site 04-28-102 12:51:21 This also means that all new content will have to be tied to an item in the menu structure 04-28-102 12:51:33 where previously I was using a different method of validation. 04-28-102 12:51:41 * Walter Walter can feel his brain start to overheat. :-) 04-28-102 12:51:55 Sorry - I will stop now 04-28-102 12:52:41 No, it's OK. It just takes me awhile to absorb this much material. 04-28-102 12:53:52 I am going on vacation for a 9 days starting this friday - which means that I will miss the next two sunday meetings 04-28-102 12:54:15 I would like to get some content in the database and get the stuff transferred to VOICE1 before I leave 04-28-102 12:54:48 But I am concerned about Apache. Do you think there is any way of getting IBM HTTP server installed in the next couple of days? 04-28-102 12:55:18 Do you have a directory into which to place your project? 04-28-102 12:55:25 On VOICE1? 04-28-102 12:55:50 Yes - I will place the files into the existing HTML, IMAGES and CGI-BIN directories 04-28-102 12:56:09 I will call the new home page xhome.html - so it doesn't interfer with the existing stuff 04-28-102 12:56:28 That way old and new can run simultaneously 04-28-102 12:57:11 So the URL would be www.warpdoctor.org/xhome.html ? 04-28-102 12:57:17 yes 04-28-102 12:57:57 But I think it is probably better not to do that until we change out apache 04-28-102 12:58:07 OK, then please go ahead with your plan to put some content in it and upload it. 04-28-102 12:58:32 I would like you to do it now, if you're close enough. 04-28-102 12:59:08 That way, while you're gone we can test it with live data, and I at least will understand it much better. 04-28-102 12:59:12 Ok - I will try and get it done before friday 04-28-102 12:59:40 If you need to upload it again the IBM Apache, that shouldn't be much extra work, should it? 04-28-102 13:00:14 Installing IBM Apache should not impact the content (i.e. the files at all) 04-28-102 13:00:37 I didn't think so. 04-28-102 13:00:40 I installed IBM Apache on my machine after running regular Apache and didn't have to change a thing 04-28-102 13:01:00 That's good news. 04-28-102 13:01:26 However I think there is some SSL stuff that is running on VOICE that will require some fiddling with 04-28-102 13:01:40 by Abel or Jeremy 04-28-102 13:02:46 Well, Jeremy is temporarily out of commission. He emailed me that he and Chrissy are house-hunting and they're not sure when things will be settled down again. 04-28-102 13:03:09 He also said he also really misses us. :-) 04-28-102 13:03:19 So I guess will be Abel. 04-28-102 13:04:33 I emailed Wilson Rook for a couple of database user IDs to use for the CGI programs and haven't heard back from hime 04-28-102 13:04:48 I guess I will email Abel for that? 04-28-102 13:05:04 Doug, if you've got more stuff you want to talk about regarding the DB2 engine, please go ahead. My brain has cooled down now. :-) 04-28-102 13:05:29 Yes, email Abel. 04-28-102 13:06:10 Its better to look at it than to hear about it anyway 04-28-102 13:06:24 Easier to understand 04-28-102 13:06:49 BTW, thanks for all the great and hard work you've put in for WarpDoctor. I know we all appreciate it a lot. 04-28-102 13:07:06 Well, I learn better that way, anyway. 04-28-102 13:07:34 It has been fun. Some of this stuff I haven't touched for a couple of years, so it way fun to get back into it. 04-28-102 13:07:40 was 04-28-102 13:08:36 One other thing - the cookie page is really only pertains to the administrators - and temporarly to those users that enter/change content 04-28-102 13:08:46 "regular" users won't get or need any cookies 04-28-102 13:11:17 Can sector remind me where to get web explorer? So I can test with it. 04-28-102 13:11:53 Comes with Warp 4... There is a little older version that can be downloaded though 04-28-102 13:13:16 I think I can make the site web explorer friendly. But I don't know if I will be able to do that 04-28-102 13:13:23 for the new content input screen(s) 04-28-102 13:13:40 and it is very version specific for the administration stuff 04-28-102 13:14:01 WebExplorer doesn't do frames 04-28-102 13:14:49 Yes I know - the "normal" site won't use frames 04-28-102 13:15:03 The enter/change screens will use frames and javascript 04-28-102 13:15:38 So you can look using prehistoric software - but to change you have to come into the modern world 04-28-102 13:15:50 Does WebExplorer do javascript? I know Netscape 2.02 did. 04-28-102 13:16:43 Also it doesn't allow to change background colors of the table windows. 04-28-102 13:18:04 The javascript that is in Netscape v 2.02 is also rather limited - compared to what is in 4.x versions 04-28-102 13:18:31 However, I really liked the automatic history generated on-the-fly by WebEx. 04-28-102 13:18:48 It was a whole page and in tree format. 04-28-102 13:19:02 My site uses javascript for menus, and I had to modify it to turn it off for Netscape 2 for Win, but on for 2.02 for OS/2 04-28-102 13:19:45 Yes - OS/2 version 2.02 has a later version of Javascript than the windows version of Netscape 2.02. 04-28-102 13:20:23 But there are changes from 2.02 to 4.04. And 4.04 javascript has some bugs that we unfortunate 04-28-102 13:20:37 Also it doesn't handle animation (just as well.) 04-28-102 13:21:21 Yeah the tabs on the notebook are implemented with DHTML - with a different execution path for Netscape and for IE 04-28-102 13:21:43 but wont work in Netscape version 2.02 or 5.0 04-28-102 13:22:13 Netscape 5 for Windows, you mean? 04-28-102 13:22:29 warpzilla I mean 04-28-102 13:22:42 and Netscape 5 for windows. 04-28-102 13:23:02 The new version of netscape is NOT backwards compatible with a lot of stuff 04-28-102 13:23:03 Can you fix that? A lot of people use Warpzilla. 04-28-102 13:23:41 And netscapes LAYERs feature is one of them. So DHTML written for netscapes layers or IE's version of DHTML will not work in the new netscape 04-28-102 13:23:49 It doesn't work with either. 04-28-102 13:24:29 Just one of the joys of trying to make anything reasonably interesting to work for the web 04-28-102 13:26:13 Is it possible to write two different DHTML sequences and execute the correct one, depending on which browser the user is using? 04-28-102 13:26:28 You guys are making all of Bill Gates arguments for him. 04-28-102 13:26:55 Yes - that is exactly what the notebook "control" does. It uses to different DTHML sections depending on the browser. 04-28-102 13:27:01 I know it's a pain, but I would rather have the pain here than give to the users and get them ticked off. 04-28-102 13:27:12 One of these days I will see if I can add a third for the new Netscape version 04-28-102 13:27:25 OK, thanks. 04-28-102 13:28:02 We will avoid those issues for normal viewer of the site by just avoiding anything that uses that type of stuff 04-28-102 13:28:08 The interface will be very simple 04-28-102 13:28:21 Sounds good. 04-28-102 13:29:20 I am afraid that it may require having a "add-in" or plug-in for users to add content though. 04-28-102 13:29:51 What kind of "plug-in" 04-28-102 13:29:58 I don't know a any web/browser based screen design that will handle content when it reaches large sizes 04-28-102 13:30:45 Remember I tentatively set the blob size as 64k - and there are some screens on the existing site that even with compression will not fit in 64k 04-28-102 13:31:09 Trying to enter 64k worth of data in a browser base "form" screen will probably be unworkable 04-28-102 13:31:25 So I am going down the path of: 04-28-102 13:31:45 1) having a simple browser based screen for entering/changing smaller sized data 04-28-102 13:32:11 2) having a file upload facility for uploading files that are created on the user hard drive 04-28-102 13:32:45 3) making a simple "plug-in" like application for OS/2 users that runs from their hard drive and interfaces to the site. 04-28-102 13:33:22 We will do them in that order - i.e. #1 will appear first. 04-28-102 13:34:36 What about the larger "chunks" of data? 04-28-102 13:34:36 For the casual user methods #1 and #2 are most likely to get used. 04-28-102 13:34:49 For WarpDoctor members #3 will most likely get used. 04-28-102 13:35:29 Larger chunks will probably have to be uploaded as a file, that the user has created somehow on his hard drive 04-28-102 13:36:06 Makes sense. Who wants to sit and type 65K of data anyway? 04-28-102 13:36:14 exactly 04-28-102 13:36:25 On the whole, your solution sounds quite plausible. 04-28-102 13:36:31 solution 04-28-102 13:36:38 Especially with no spell checker and no editing features 04-28-102 13:37:39 For #3 I think we could probably whip something up that uses Rexx and EPM - so that people can type in a editor and send the file from the editor. 04-28-102 13:38:40 Does anyone remember the interface kit that came with version 3 of warp. And what a nice job that did in automatically upgrading the apps in the IAK 04-28-102 13:39:18 I'm afraid I don't. 04-28-102 13:40:44 Thats the plan stan 04-28-102 13:41:45 Anyone have any comments or questions for Doug? 04-28-102 13:42:37 * Sector rembers that 04-28-102 13:42:46 Used Gopher 04-28-102 13:43:07 slick wasn't it. 04-28-102 13:49:46 Well, thanks again Doug for all your work. 04-28-102 13:50:38 When i disconnect that IP address will not work anymore. But I should have all this transferred by Thurs 04-28-102 13:50:41 If someone wants to move for an adjournment, we can close the official meeting, but continue to hang out together. 04-28-102 13:50:51 I move to close 04-28-102 13:51:15 All in favour type Aye, yes, etc. 04-28-102 13:52:46 All opposed to adjournment, type Aye. 04-28-102 13:53:42 Chairman votes in favour. Motion is carried.