01-06-102 13:02:34 Anyway, let's all welcome Gord Snider. This is his first WD chat, and he had to struggle with Gammatech IRC and my poor instructions to get here. :-) 01-06-102 13:03:43 I came to see what goes on and to ask a question, after regular business is disposed of. 01-06-102 13:06:24 This meeting of WarpDoctor is now in session. 01-06-102 13:10:56 Has everyone read the agenda? 01-06-102 13:15:24 Longstaff (aka Charles), how much did Jeremy tell you about what's happened recently? 01-06-102 13:15:47 Gord, have you joined the Warpdoctor mailing list? 01-06-102 13:15:52 No. 01-06-102 13:16:48 If you anticipate coming back, you should. It's the principal means of communications between WD members during the week. 01-06-102 13:16:52 Can I join mailing list on Website? 01-06-102 13:18:06 No. you must send the following email message to majormajor@os2voice.org WARPDOCTOR youremailaddress END 01-06-102 13:18:20 Correction. 01-06-102 13:18:43 http://www.os2voice.org/mailinglists.html 01-06-102 13:18:50 It should read SUBSCRIBE WARPDOCTOR youremailaddress END 01-06-102 13:18:56 OK 01-06-102 13:19:30 Subject line can contain anything or nothing. :-) 01-06-102 13:19:35 Walter: rat told me the initial goo-goo regarding the db2 installation got fixed.......with the dsl stuff i'm afraid i lost the scroll of who to thank - but i thank them anyway, and this is good news 01-06-102 13:20:55 All the logs are now posted on the WD web site, so you should be able to get the ones you're missing. 01-06-102 13:21:30 e-mail sent to majormajor 01-06-102 13:22:05 Good. Then you'll get all discussions, announcements, and agendas. That'll help a lot. 01-06-102 13:22:14 www.warpdoctor.org/irclogs/ 01-06-102 13:22:41 i need to take some time and review all that in detail, but i think i have a pretty good idea what got done 01-06-102 13:23:47 You can post anything by emailing a message to warpdoctor@os2voice.org . 01-06-102 13:26:51 db2 runs on the server - next is th websphere installation 01-06-102 13:27:01 Agenda Item 3: Old Business. 01-06-102 13:27:33 sorry walter.......please proceed 01-06-102 13:28:51 Considerable time was spent at our last meeting regarding some issues of technology. The question of drilling down vs. searching appeared to be left unresolved. 01-06-102 13:30:41 i would float the opinion that search is more intuitiave now that www is so common 01-06-102 13:30:46 However, before we continue I want to clear up a personnel/protocol issue. I hope I won't offend anyone. :-) 01-06-102 13:32:13 go for it 01-06-102 13:32:48 It is my understanding that in Longstaff's absence, Doug graciously became involved in our meetings--at my request--and agreed to taken on the position of DB2 Team Leader. 01-06-102 13:33:32 Wilson Rook, another relative newcomer, also agreed to assist him. 01-06-102 13:33:32 that's pretty much what i understand as well 01-06-102 13:33:57 can't Longstaff, and Doug lead the DB2 team together? 01-06-102 13:34:50 I mean seems to me the two putting their heads together would be a good thing 01-06-102 13:34:57 OK, Charlie, we're thrilled to have you back, because we need all the help we can get, but I don't think we should undo the decision we made a couple of meetings ago. 01-06-102 13:35:14 thank you Rat-Salad very much, but on a project with a lotta techno goo-goo especially, i think there should be a single leader 01-06-102 13:35:39 just a thought 01-06-102 13:36:37 We already have two or three people on the DB2 committee, and I would like to add Charlie to that committee, but when I ask for a status report, still come to Doug as the leader. 01-06-102 13:36:49 Is there any problem with that? 01-06-102 13:37:03 If there is, I'd like to thrash it out now. 01-06-102 13:37:13 this may be awful sudden, but if Doug is open to the idea of taking charge, and you guys all feel ok with that, i wouldn't wanna be an obstacle 01-06-102 13:37:17 actually now that i think about it I can understand what you mean.. like with the web design.. not a good idea for two people to get into it together.. creative styles can clash and become a problem 01-06-102 13:37:49 I am open to whatever you guys think will work best. 01-06-102 13:38:27 I personnally think that you need one person to be responsible, but that doesn't mean that only one person designs everything or does everything 01-06-102 13:38:38 But Charlie, if at all possible, I'd like to keep you on the Team. I've had one DB2 expert leave for "political" reasons, and I'd sure hate to lose you as well/again. 01-06-102 13:38:51 Rat-Salad: in commercial development, one guy always comes out on top.....and this is usually accomplished with the extinction of the competitors 01-06-102 13:39:03 Doug--exactly. 01-06-102 13:40:09 I was planning to try and hash out the design via a basic, high level design document - which some of you have already gotten 01-06-102 13:40:18 Longstaff: can we manage to do it without the "extinction" here? 01-06-102 13:40:45 heh yeah.. no need for extinction here 01-06-102 13:41:15 Walter: i think so :) there aren't any $xxM stock options floating in the goo :) 01-06-102 13:42:57 I could still use some people willing to help with site updates.. since Digital Rapids is keeping me busy 01-06-102 13:43:40 * Longstaff would like to introduce myself to doug - i'm president of a small computer company in westfield nj, and a pioneer of x86 networking - i've been a warper since october 1994 and deleted windoze at that time, and never even thought about reinstalling it 01-06-102 13:44:40 Thanks - I'll send you an email and update and you can tell me what you think. 01-06-102 13:45:42 Jeremy, I'm still working on that. I conducting an active recruitment campaign as well as broadening the announcement net. I've got one local guy I'm going to contact by phone tomorrow--I hope. 01-06-102 13:46:24 Doug: from what rat communicated the other day, you were the guy that got some major kinks out of the db2 installation on the voice server.......i salute you for that and look forward to workin sumthin out 01-06-102 13:46:45 This is great! 01-06-102 13:46:49 Great - I look forward to working with you 01-06-102 13:47:00 Abel and Wilson fixed the DB2 installation 01-06-102 13:48:37 Longstaff, I don't think you've met Wilson Rook yet. He came to one of our chats, stayed, got involved, and has helped make a real difference. 01-06-102 13:48:59 Right now, he's on an "unschedule vacation until Jan 20" 01-06-102 13:53:57 Doug, would you make sure Charlie gets a copy of your WD paper. 01-06-102 13:54:15 Yes I will 01-06-102 14:00:52 Longstaff, we still need a few more bodies--we probably have enough chiefs for now. 01-06-102 14:03:28 that's kinda been how it goes all along.......i'd much rather work with doug on making table structure suggestions, or discussing indexing 01-06-102 14:03:42 Doug, I would like to table discussion of your paper. When would be a good time to discuss it as far as you're concerned? 01-06-102 14:04:34 I was hoping that different people would email me comments and I would include any non-controversial comments automatically 01-06-102 14:05:07 any controversial comments would get emailed to you and (i guess) get hashed out at a Sunday meeting 01-06-102 14:05:46 I would like to get some basic database to web output working by say this coming weekend 01-06-102 14:06:18 in any open development, there's bound to be a certain degree of controversy 01-06-102 14:06:19 The web based screen for accepting input would take longer, as would the email and ftp acceptance of input 01-06-102 14:06:38 but DB2 client input could begin very shortly. 01-06-102 14:07:22 i thought the construction of the lookup page oughta come first 01-06-102 14:07:31 OK, it sounds like it's time to set up the Ceilidh DB2 forum. I/can limit who's on it, and then you can post your question, and people can post their comments to the forum. (This was one of the reasons we bought Ceilidh, after all. :-) 01-06-102 14:08:03 I think that once everyone decides what exactly the capabilities and features are that must be in WD the rest will (hopefully) fall into place 01-06-102 14:09:03 Would you like to set up a DB2 committee consisting, say, of Rat, Doug, Charles, Bill (aka Wilson)? 01-06-102 14:09:31 Or should we include everyone on the mailing list for now? 01-06-102 14:09:35 me? hehe 01-06-102 14:09:53 well, i don't wanna encourage anyone to git too ambitious........but to begin, a good robust lookup should be a good place to start 01-06-102 14:09:56 I know what DB2 is.. but that's about it :) 01-06-102 14:10:06 That sounds like an excellent list to me. I would prefer to keep the committee smaller rather than larger 01-06-102 14:11:09 OK, give me a day or so to set it up. It only takes a few minutes, but I've been incredibly busy this weekend, and it isn't over yet! 01-06-102 14:11:37 I should be able to get it up tomorrow sometime. 01-06-102 14:11:39 Rat - I think you are essential to the committee because you are the web guy, and web interface is the majority of the job 01-06-102 14:11:57 got ya 01-06-102 14:12:41 I absolutely think Rat should be included. He's been working on the project when there was nobody else was around. :-) 01-06-102 14:15:39 While we are talking about Jeremy, if any of you knows of someone proficient in HTML (preferably including Stylesheets) please invite him (begging is allowed) to join us to help Jeremy. 01-06-102 14:16:16 He has laboured alone long enough, and he does have a real job. 01-06-102 14:20:10 Doug? 01-06-102 14:20:19 Yes sir? 01-06-102 14:21:31 I asked you a question earlier, and I don't see an answer. When do you think the document might be ready for the whole group to discuss? 01-06-102 14:22:06 Actually, I guess we did discuss it. We decided to send it to committee. 01-06-102 14:22:23 I will take out the ID and password specific stuff and send it out tonight 01-06-102 14:22:55 I will send it to the committee - and actually now that I think about it everyone on the committee, except charlie, has a copy 01-06-102 14:23:28 OK, now I can cross that off my list. 01-06-102 14:23:34 And if it stays in the committee I will just leave that stuff in 01-06-102 14:23:57 I have a multiple booting nightmare.. could you send it to me again please? 01-06-102 14:23:59 OK 01-06-102 14:24:07 No problem 01-06-102 14:24:36 Agenda Item 4. (sorry about the scrambled order) 01-06-102 14:28:21 I was going to say that Item 4 was going to be directed to Lalcan. 01-06-102 14:28:44 However, let's discuss it anyway. 01-06-102 14:28:45 seems lalcan isn't here 01-06-102 14:30:33 What exactly do we want to store for each device? 01-06-102 14:30:56 Here is a partial list that I put together. 01-06-102 14:31:03 Links? 01-06-102 14:31:09 Drivers? 01-06-102 14:31:22 Patches/Updates? 01-06-102 14:31:31 Author? 01-06-102 14:31:39 Source Code? 01-06-102 14:31:54 all over the above could be useful 01-06-102 14:31:59 err 01-06-102 14:32:01 Any other suggestions or ideas? 01-06-102 14:32:08 all of the above could be useful 01-06-102 14:32:17 plus hardware driver is for, company making driver, version 01-06-102 14:32:34 The biggest restraint, of course, is copyright. 01-06-102 14:33:02 OK--version 01-06-102 14:33:59 However, most commercial companies, probably won't let us store their drivers on the VOICE web site. 01-06-102 14:34:18 Doug, Charlie--what is your opinion on that matter? 01-06-102 14:34:24 I think we should be agressive about copyright and store it until told otherwise 01-06-102 14:35:11 However I think we should store it in an archive location that is not accessible to the WD user until the driver disappears from general availiblity 01-06-102 14:35:14 I just spent the last 39 years of my life as a trial lawyer. I think you guys are goin to need me. 01-06-102 14:35:22 true.. you usually get a warning before you get a letter in the mail from a lawyer :) 01-06-102 14:35:52 That's what I would LIKE to do--but I don't want to get VOICE into any difficulties, and I don't want to do the wrong thing ethically either. 01-06-102 14:36:23 IF the company is actively supporting OS/2 than the drive will be available else. If the company drops OS/2 or goes out of business it won't care 01-06-102 14:37:28 With drivers I don;t think there is going to be much of a problem (except maybe Scitech) because most drivers are associated with hardware 01-06-102 14:37:47 scitech would hit the roof 01-06-102 14:37:54 The driver is generally made by the hardware maker in order to sell the hardware, and the driver is worthless without the hardware 01-06-102 14:37:55 i'm speaking for myself, but i would welcome learned legal advice regarding warpdoctor issues 01-06-102 14:38:28 I agree... didn't know we had a lawyer in here :) 01-06-102 14:38:51 IBM has been selling drivers through Software Choice for sometime. They probably wouldn't appreciate us storing those same drivers on Server1. 01-06-102 14:39:30 An lawyer trying to be anonymous. :-) 01-06-102 14:39:38 I think Scitech drivers are out of the question... don't mess with them 01-06-102 14:40:05 As long as we don't make the drivers available to the public, and as long as someone paid for them I don't think IBM will notice. 01-06-102 14:40:30 It's really just as helpful to list a link to the driver location. By the way Walter, I'm not anonymous. I sat next to you at Toronto. 01-06-102 14:40:31 If IBM stops making them available then we might want to make them available until IBM puts the hammer down on us. 01-06-102 14:41:21 As much as I would like to do what Doug first suggested, I don't think we can ethically or legally store drivers on Server1 unless the copyright allows us to. :-( 01-06-102 14:42:26 what we could do is write some of these hardware companies asking premission to archive their drivers.. and explain our reasoning 01-06-102 14:42:46 Drivers available for the downloading without cost from manufacturer, I would have no problem storing, however. 01-06-102 14:42:50 Walter: if you have a valid Software Choice subscription you can put on a server the drivers... You can't permit others to download it :-) 01-06-102 14:43:17 I know we can't mess with IBM's SWC stuff 01-06-102 14:43:27 You are probably correct in a precise way. But if the drive becomes unavailable and we make it available, is that any better than storing 01-06-102 14:46:35 i think if the driver was withdrawn and no longer for sale, that would make a material difference [just my conjecture] and thankfully hypothetical at this moment 01-06-102 14:47:31 I've read a bit about copyrighted matterial 01-06-102 14:48:00 from what I've read a copyright is good for atleast 50years after the authors demise 01-06-102 14:48:07 A driver can be withdrawn specifically because its bugs are causing problems for the author. Mere withdrawal doesn't "release" it. 01-06-102 14:48:49 granted 01-06-102 14:49:06 Very true. If the driver is withdrawn because of bugs we probably don't want to make it available anyway 01-06-102 14:50:04 But if the driver is withdrawn, no longer for sale, and the company doesn't support OS/2 or the driver anymore, it would be pretty hard for the company to argue that it is financially losing anything by the dirver being available 01-06-102 14:50:11 we would if that drive was the difference between a functional peice of hardware and a useless peice of hardware 01-06-102 14:50:15 My ident is "Guest: because this is the first time I ever got into a chat. I'm really martindale@attglobal.net. 01-06-102 14:50:45 it's a little hamfisted though......it applies to all software - not drivers only - ya can't git a copy of corel office for linux anymore 01-06-102 14:50:58 This is only my third time or so - welcome martin 01-06-102 14:51:07 The financeal loss is the liability to the author because of a bad driver. 01-06-102 14:52:05 Could we mitigate that somehow? 01-06-102 14:52:43 financial loss? what if the availability of the warp driver caused m$ to slow roll the bribe payout? that's clear financial loss 01-06-102 14:53:36 Hi Martindale! First, thanks for making the effort to visit us. It's much appreciated! Second, next time you come--and I hope there is a next time--simply replace "Guest" with somehing "more unique", such as "Martin". 01-06-102 14:54:21 Could a separate company be formed that assummed libibility for all issues arising from the driver that we made available? 01-06-102 14:55:06 Doug: no, unless the original author was willing to go that way 01-06-102 14:55:09 Will do. I think some of the issues need though, and an appropriate disclaimer can do a lot to avoid life's liabilities. Certainly the first line is to ask people if their stuff can be published. 01-06-102 14:55:43 That makes good sense. 01-06-102 14:56:05 That could implemented on the input template. 01-06-102 14:58:17 How about this? 01-06-102 14:58:38 Always store a link; 01-06-102 14:59:20 If we can get permission to publish the driver, then save the driver. 01-06-102 15:00:04 That sounds like a good start 01-06-102 15:00:11 If the driver has a copyright such as the Netlabs, etc., then save the driver. 01-06-102 15:00:30 In any case save a description. 01-06-102 15:00:56 That's good. But I note that few pages really keep up the links. I can't even find anyone to pay money to re: CuSeeMe. 01-06-102 15:01:15 Does anyone know offhand Hobbes' position on uploading commercial, but no-cost drivers? 01-06-102 15:02:01 I have seen some show up on Hobbes and dissappear within a day, I assume on request. 01-06-102 15:02:17 Guest: That what I don't like about saving only links. :-( 01-06-102 15:02:19 I think hobbes offical policy is that it will not store copyrighted material. 01-06-102 15:03:10 I guess that would even include stuff with the so-called Public Copyright. 01-06-102 15:03:15 best thing to do is probably to contact the indevidual hardware makers 01-06-102 15:03:36 i think the key is to find indicators to where copyrighted drivers can be found 01-06-102 15:03:51 find and provide 01-06-102 15:04:53 No I think Hobbes will store public copyright, and stuff the is uploaded by the copyright holder. Basically I think the way it actually works is as Martindale says. If someone complains the item is removed 01-06-102 15:05:00 I would like to see the day when OS/2 developers start filling out our template when they complete a driver, hit SUBMIT, and our WD Product automagically does the rest. :-) 01-06-102 15:05:56 I think the community needs pumped up about WarpDoctor 01-06-102 15:06:21 An idea, maybe WD could try and become the publisher for software that is discontinued or no longer available 01-06-102 15:06:21 OK, well our time has run out. 01-06-102 15:06:37 That would be great as well. 01-06-102 15:07:13 The problem is contacting publishers who have disappeared from the 'net. 01-06-102 15:07:24 I know