12-16-101 11:09:11 This meeting of Warpdoctor is now in session. 12-16-101 11:09:20 Before you ask: yes 12-16-101 11:09:32 Sector, good. 12-16-101 11:11:10 Let's begin with ye olde status reports. 12-16-101 11:12:17 The first status report is a new one. I co-oped WR to help me an old project. 12-16-101 11:13:45 He in turn borrowed R-S and Abel and has got most of the new Ceilidh set up on VOICE1. I'll let W-R give the report since he told me he'd be ready to do so. 12-16-101 11:13:56 W-R: the floor is yours. 12-16-101 11:14:25 How much do you want? 12-16-101 11:14:48 Just a summary of what you did, I guess. 12-16-101 11:15:47 I configured the DNS to send forums.os2voice.org and .com to point to Voice 1 and with the help of Abel and RS (Till Alltell took them away) we got the vhost files setup on apache. 12-16-101 11:16:50 I do now know the operation of ceilidh so I do not know abou it's funtionality. At this point I hand the project an floor back to walter (til he has another assignment for me) 12-16-101 11:17:08 now= not 12-16-101 11:20:56 I had Ceilidh operational at http://www.os2voice.org/ceilidh, but that only allowed for one forum. To allow for multiple forums, I had to get subdomains (e.g. forums.os2voice.org) operational. (Ceilidh requires one top-level directory for each forum) This is what I asked WR to set up for me. I will now setup Ceilidh again in a directory in the subdomain. 12-16-101 11:21:47 WR: Ceilidh is an OS/2 based message system. 12-16-101 11:22:14 It always for multithreading and other neat features. 12-16-101 11:22:40 Yes, I downloaded it install readme and glanced through it to get what I needed. 12-16-101 11:23:11 It is a web-based message system, and so it is a lot more flexible than an email one. 12-16-101 11:24:00 We've cc:'ed Abel and Jeremy on everything we've done to keep them fully informed. 12-16-101 11:24:21 I guess that's about it. Are there any questions? 12-16-101 11:25:40 If not let's move on. 12-16-101 11:26:04 b. Jeremy - website 12-16-101 11:26:13 Anything to report? 12-16-101 11:27:12 I will be adding another page to the site later this week when I get time (thanks Wilson) 12-16-101 11:27:26 but nothing to report for this week I don't think 12-16-101 11:27:39 Page on what? 12-16-101 11:28:04 Walter, from the zip you sent me 12-16-101 11:28:28 Oh. 12-16-101 11:29:15 some hush hush info, perhaps?? jeje 12-16-101 11:29:25 we really need to try to get a few more volunteers to do html stuff 12-16-101 11:29:54 maybe get started on your os2.about.com articles.. and some other content 12-16-101 11:31:12 [Access Tips in Peer-to -Peer Lan Containing eComStation Workstations.] 12-16-101 11:31:37 I have an easy install zip file for changi now 12-16-101 11:31:47 ... if you folks are still interested in a news server 12-16-101 11:32:26 R-S why don't you put together a short piece describing what you want, and I'll post it on the various news sources like VOICE News? 12-16-101 11:32:47 I agree it's a critical area right now. 12-16-101 11:33:16 I think the more man power we can get the faster it'll all come together 12-16-101 11:33:25 woo-hoo: forgive my ignorance, but what is changi? 12-16-101 11:33:36 so maybe it is a good idea to go through the news sources 12-16-101 11:33:51 News server 12-16-101 11:33:53 walter It's a news server... usenet news 12-16-101 11:34:18 OK. 12-16-101 11:34:20 Point your news reader to jakesplace.dhs.org to see it in action 12-16-101 11:34:41 If you're using netscape, copy/paste this into netscape: news://jakesplace.dhs.org 12-16-101 11:34:56 Actually, I've been there. 12-16-101 11:35:37 So R-S, can you send me something describing your requirements? 12-16-101 11:36:14 my "requirements" aren't very hard to meet 12-16-101 11:38:05 We've been through that before You just think that, because you're so strong in that field that they don't seem hard to meet to you. 12-16-101 11:38:48 yep 12-16-101 11:38:48 Anyway, can you send me something we *realistic* requiments? 12-16-101 11:39:21 we=with 12-16-101 11:39:33 ill try to make my template easier to understand.. enbed some instructions perhaps 12-16-101 11:40:21 I was hoping Doug would make it here by now. 12-16-101 11:40:47 Since he isn't, let's move on. 12-16-101 11:41:12 I think we is in another meeting and will try to get here as soon as he can. 12-16-101 11:41:15 c. Lalcan - device compatibility list 12-16-101 11:41:17 I guess your right Walter.. 12-16-101 11:41:36 About what? 12-16-101 11:41:44 All right, i've almost finished with the printers.. 12-16-101 11:42:04 about me preceiving things to be easier than others may 12-16-101 11:42:26 i've got most of the covered, and now i'm looking for modem info... 12-16-101 11:44:47 Well, i'm looking for modem compatibility, but haven't found much... 12-16-101 11:45:08 What kinds of modems are you looking for? 12-16-101 11:45:32 well, all of them... 12-16-101 11:45:35 i.e. dialup, cable, etc? 12-16-101 11:45:49 or different brands? 12-16-101 11:46:03 I use a 3com PCMCIA Modem in my laptop. I'll send you info on that. 12-16-101 11:46:35 I'm classifying them by brand... and after that by connection type... 12-16-101 11:46:48 There are articles on two PCI modems in the VOICE NEwsletter. An IBM and an Actiontec 12-16-101 11:46:51 perhaps i should change the order, first by type and then by brand... 12-16-101 11:47:08 I've got three different modems in my office. I'll see what I can dig up on them. 12-16-101 11:47:26 MAD: The november or december Newsletter? 12-16-101 11:47:44 Back issues- See the master index 12-16-101 11:48:19 mmmh, i guess i should have wrote the whole nick :) i'll look for them 12-16-101 11:48:40 Lalcan: http://www.os2voice.org/VNL/past_issues/vnlindex.html 12-16-101 11:49:47 all right, i copied it. btw i added a link to an IBM Japan page about Thinkpad compatibility... 12-16-101 11:50:17 if you want to check it, this is the address: http://www-6.ibm.com/jp/pspjinfo/os2/warplist/warpibm1_2.html 12-16-101 11:53:31 As the owner of a TP 390E, that's a great site, lalcan. 12-16-101 11:53:46 OK, let's move on. 12-16-101 11:54:30 Doug Clark - DB2 status 12-16-101 11:55:18 OK, Doug you're on. However we'll deal with the database/html issue under New Business if you don't mind. 12-16-101 11:55:43 I don't konw the status of the DB2 installation on server1. I am awaiting an id/password/ip address from Abel (i guess) in order to log in and check things out 12-16-101 11:56:12 Seems Abel is a VERY busy guy - which I understand completely 12-16-101 11:56:52 Jeremy, can you help with getting this request to Abel? 12-16-101 11:56:55 We really won't know until we can log in and try things out 12-16-101 11:57:09 Wilson has the same need. 12-16-101 11:57:38 Is Able the only system administrator? 12-16-101 11:57:53 Looks Like Abel just joined. Maybe we can togeather after this meeting (or in private chat) 12-16-101 11:58:17 Abel = WinHoss? 12-16-101 11:58:23 Yup or Hoss 12-16-101 11:59:00 can=can get 12-16-101 12:02:49 Well, let's go on to 4. Old Business. 12-16-101 12:03:43 4. Old Business 12-16-101 12:04:07 a. Accessing (links) vs. storing data. 12-16-101 12:04:18 I have some insight into that... 12-16-101 12:04:23 To expend a bit on DB2 - I have DB2 v 5.2 installed at my place. I plan to install Apache and duplicate the setup of WD in order to develop locally. Getting access to DB2 on server1 is not a hold up at this point in time. 12-16-101 12:04:45 You're talking about whether to use static html files vs. a database right? To make it easier for search engines? 12-16-101 12:05:22 woo-hoo - yes that is the issue. 12-16-101 12:05:26 Ok. 12-16-101 12:05:40 well, have to go, in case we don't meet before new year, hope you all have a great christmas and a happy new year ! 12-16-101 12:05:41 It doesn't matter whether they are in a db or not, so long as each page has a unique url 12-16-101 12:06:02 If you're going to use a cgi program with but one url for all of this, then you have a problem. 12-16-101 12:06:19 for example, webmail.cmd by dmitris will only show up as one page, 12-16-101 12:06:31 However, what you want to do is to use server side includes. 12-16-101 12:06:40 The idea is to create a page template. 12-16-101 12:07:03 Inside the page you'll want to include the results from an executable program (ie- a cgi script). 12-16-101 12:07:24 You can do this with apache, though I'm more familiar with web/2 12-16-101 12:07:57 What you are saying is true for SSI - but the problem then becomes keeping each HTML page (with SSI) syncronised with the data in the database. 12-16-101 12:08:03 In web/2, I could make a static page that's called eg result.html, and where I want the result of a search to be I would use a tag like this: 12-16-101 12:08:18 12-16-101 12:08:41 Fetchdata goes and gets the info out of the db and replaces that tag with the info in the database. 12-16-101 12:08:53 woo-hoo: are you saying you would be willing to work with us and do this for WarpDoctor? Because we're very short of manpower. 12-16-101 12:09:06 So, if the info in the database gets updated, the next time this get called, the new data comes in 12-16-101 12:09:13 Well, here's the problem for that Walter 12-16-101 12:09:15 Yes. I think a balance is needed. A limited number of general pages with the search or cgi command hardcoded to the page. Other stuff could only be found from the WD site. 12-16-101 12:09:19 SSI is used quite a bit on the wd site actually to make updating the menu to the left easier to update 12-16-101 12:09:41 R-S: heh... I'm doing the same thing for my business site right now:) 12-16-101 12:09:48 I have a time problem... 12-16-101 12:10:04 I'm going to be taking over from Jacaranda business systems as soon as I get my systems up and running 12-16-101 12:10:16 its great really.. update one file and its changed on all pages 12-16-101 12:11:09 I understand what woo-hoo is saying, I think he just said it better then I said it in the posts. 12-16-101 12:11:30 I have an enourmous amount of work to do... I got all the customer lists as faxes so I have to make a db, keypunch the data in, and then write myself a front end to make maintaining it easy. 12-16-101 12:11:58 ...as well as a good export function so that I can easily fix the ecs.com site when the db there cooks itself again:( 12-16-101 12:12:03 High volume pages that do not change much can be rebuilt as a static page once per hour, week. or month. 12-16-101 12:12:49 For server side includes - the problem is: when a new piece of hardware is added (or an existing piece deleted) the HTML file with the SSI must also be added (or deleted). If that page is also to be accessible from a menu structure the menu must also 12-16-101 12:12:51 be updated 12-16-101 12:13:12 Doug: Here's how you might want to consider handling that... 12-16-101 12:13:41 I've been building an index program for my website. I use meta tags to add certain info to the page for use by the indexer. 12-16-101 12:14:06 When I need to update the structure of the site, I run the indexer which makes an index in the .environment area. 12-16-101 12:14:23 However... this means you have to use object rexx; this facility is not available in classic rexx. 12-16-101 12:15:07 Then, I use a menu builder cgi program to make the menu on the fly based on what's in the web.server directory in the .environment. 12-16-101 12:15:36 If someone wants to see my classes (not yet 100% complete) I'd be happy to share. 12-16-101 12:15:54 I have a class for pages, folders, metatags, etc. 12-16-101 12:16:05 I'm trying to build it to be as extensible as possible. 12-16-101 12:16:41 So, for the example of a new piece of hardware... you'll want to make a table in your db with the hardware list. 12-16-101 12:17:03 If we can back up for a moment - Does everyone feel that having WD visibility to external search engine is a critical issue? 12-16-101 12:17:20 Write a script that gets that list and formats it in html (a table, I guess), along with a link to the relevant info page 12-16-101 12:17:32 I would place the menu items in a database. The Main menu page would call up all level one menu items and use the menu name in the link which in turn will do a search on that menu item for records or a sub menu item. 12-16-101 12:17:34 I've had good success doing this by using a get 12-16-101 12:17:38 perhaps just the main page is all that needs to be visible? 12-16-101 12:17:47 No, I think you should expose as much as you can. 12-16-101 12:17:59 That's why getting is so good... each one of these gets a unique url 12-16-101 12:18:42 It needs to be findable, but the main searching should be done at the WarpDoctor site itself 12-16-101 12:18:49 You'd end up with the form http://warpdoctor.org/hardware/?type=nic&make=3com&model=3c905 or something. 12-16-101 12:19:17 At some point we need to be able to search on Thinkpad 770, Warp 4, Fixpack 37, 3com modem. We do not need a static page for that. 12-16-101 12:19:39 Woo-hoo: We really appreciate your contributions, but we have a lot to cover and only a limited time. Please give the others time to express their views as well. 12-16-101 12:19:42 Make sure you include a description script so that the resulting page includes a description saying something like "Here's where you get info on installing a 3com nic and where to get the drivers 12-16-101 12:19:50 Sorry 12-16-101 12:19:59 We can start with one opening page - get the database running and then add as many sudo static page as needed (or time allows) 12-16-101 12:20:28 Then, if someone's on google... they can jump directly to the right page on warpdoctor.org... 12-16-101 12:20:32 I would feel comfortable with not having WD vis to ext search if we could feel comforable that the OS/2 community (old and new) was aware of WD 12-16-101 12:20:59 I am comfortable with Doug's position. 12-16-101 12:21:32 Woo-hoo are you subscribed to warpdoctor@os2voice.org -- I would like to see your comments there. 12-16-101 12:21:37 However, I prefer storing the actual information where possible as to simply linking to it. 12-16-101 12:22:53 Yes. That is what the sampling of pages will do. It will get some exposure in the search engines. We can also do a presentation at WarpStock. Once the word gets out it will spread via news groups also. We may even ask for a link off of the eCS 12-16-101 12:22:55 site. 12-16-101 12:23:11 Walter: But we only have control over what is on WD.org and os2voice.org. Anything else would require permission. 12-16-101 12:23:11 Linking to information leaves us vulnerable to loss of information when/if the site goes down. 12-16-101 12:23:39 So we cache everything 12-16-101 12:23:52 Only if it's proprietry. That's why I said "if possible". 12-16-101 12:24:02 If you do a search for an article, you should be able to copy the url out of the web browser and past that as a link. The page will be recreated on demand and it may even add a new article on the subject. 12-16-101 12:24:17 We don't need permission to store what's on Hobbes, for example. 12-16-101 12:25:52 Doug, when we enter a Link record, is the a way to cache the entire return to a blob? 12-16-101 12:26:49 I would suggest cache-ing the other sites to WD hard drive(s) with a structure that mirrors the cached site 12-16-101 12:27:53 As long as the other site is in existence we link to their site. If the other site goes down we move the cached stuff to a production drive/location and update our links to the production drive/location 12-16-101 12:28:00 What about for single page articles -- say from /. ? 12-16-101 12:28:26 erm nit /.!!! 12-16-101 12:28:31 not 12-16-101 12:28:43 heh 12-16-101 12:29:05 yeah... slashdot 12-16-101 12:29:13 bofg, imho 12-16-101 12:29:15 Info is info. I have even found good information in Windows Announcements. 12-16-101 12:29:17 If the stuff is really small - or only one or two items from a site (and there isn't much chance of it being updated) then we should probably store it here 12-16-101 12:29:31 Such as the withdraw of support for 3.1 then 95 ... 12-16-101 12:29:59 you sure won't find no good news about OS/2 on slashdot 12-16-101 12:30:18 OK, I think we've reached a general consensus. We can thrash out the details as we go along. 12-16-101 12:31:09 If we belive our OS (IBM's) is good. Then we can stand up from what they have to say. In some cases they may be right. If it is a shortcoming, lets document it and then come up with a fix that is also documented. 12-16-101 12:31:29 One more word; 12-16-101 12:31:47 OK, just one. 12-16-101 12:31:51 A lot of /. is just juvenile nonsense 12-16-101 12:32:25 Say I read on /. that you can do xyz and take down any OS/2 site. I would want to link to /. , include the quote, and also the fix. All in one place. 12-16-101 12:33:47 That is what I want out of WD. Search on the problem and present the fix, update, new program ... 12-16-101 12:34:07 wrook: sounds like a good vision to me:) 12-16-101 12:34:09 Jeremy and I are going to work on a new structure for WD, and some of what I have in mind may assist with some of the details of storage vs. linking. 12-16-101 12:34:27 OK, We MUST move on. 12-16-101 12:34:40 5. New Business 12-16-101 12:34:46 Structure - as in web presentation? 12-16-101 12:35:14 a. Warpdoctor technology - Database or HTML - Doug Clark 12-16-101 12:35:38 Can that discussion be open (posted to warpdoctor@os2voice.org) 12-16-101 12:35:49 Doug hit me with an extended email to the effect 12-16-101 12:36:21 that he would like to reconsider with the group the possibility of using HTML 12-16-101 12:36:56 instead of database engine to accomplish WD's goals. 12-16-101 12:37:28 I haven't changed my mind, but I promised a shot at discussing the matter with us. 12-16-101 12:37:37 Doug, you're on. 12-16-101 12:38:01 Actually we have been discussing this somewhat. 12-16-101 12:38:01 promised s/b promised him. 12-16-101 12:38:41 My viewpoint is that if we want extensive visibility of WD to external search engines we are probably best using HTML files 12-16-101 12:38:56 You can accomplish that with a db 12-16-101 12:39:06 That's what I was talking about earlier... 12-16-101 12:39:14 If we can live with not having everything (or even most things) searchable from Google/hotbot. etc. then we should implement the database 12-16-101 12:39:18 How to make that happen with a db 12-16-101 12:39:28 that would me we need to get together a good sized team to do HTML 12-16-101 12:39:47 me=mean 12-16-101 12:40:02 RS, frankly that's one of my concerns. 12-16-101 12:40:12 w00-hoo is right. it CAN happen with a database. At some point you have to ask yourself why? Are the advantages of using the database more than the work of having both 12-16-101 12:40:51 that is a big concern... theres not enough people willing to help at this point 12-16-101 12:42:17 I do not see a problem with making and maintaining 20 pages for the search engines. 12-16-101 12:42:23 If we are constrained by resources, and we have to make a choice - then lets choose the database. I just wanted everyone to know what the trade-offs are. 12-16-101 12:42:52 Doug, why don't you list them for us? 12-16-101 12:43:19 My first goal with a database (unless you tell me otherwise) is to just get something running - something that doesn't include spider crawlable text. 12-16-101 12:44:23 trade-offs: HTML - harder to do, searchable. Database - probably easier to program and maintain - no search 12-16-101 12:44:45 By search I mean searching from Google, hotbot, etc. 12-16-101 12:45:02 Yes... but with proper site design, you can make the db searchable from google etc 12-16-101 12:45:05 What about internal search. 12-16-101 12:45:13 The amount of work to make a database implementation searchable is probably more than to use straight HTML 12-16-101 12:45:29 That's why I was talking about using template pages with http gets to do the searches on problems and solutions. 12-16-101 12:45:30 Internal search site is no problem - with either method. 12-16-101 12:46:28 woo-hoo: I will email you privately, but I believe there are significant problems with any template, ssi, cgi+html storage solution 12-16-101 12:47:08 Doug, which do you think will give faster responses to a usery query? 12-16-101 12:47:24 Doug: Ok... I'm writing some software to try and make doing this easier, but it's not done yet. 12-16-101 12:47:25 I'm not saying that external searches + database cannot be done. I am saying I'm not so sure that the amount of work make that a good choice over an HTML based solution 12-16-101 12:47:35 ... as I said, I'm happy to share what I've got... 12-16-101 12:47:37 So all other things equal, external search vs. maintainability. 12-16-101 12:47:49 Yes - in a nutshell 12-16-101 12:48:27 Thanks woohoo- I am very interested i what you have. My email is dgclark@attglobal.net 12-16-101 12:48:41 For the amount of data (large) that I want to see entered into the system over the next 5 years, we should go for lower maintainability. 12-16-101 12:48:54 Well Doug, why don't I work on it some more and then post to mail list. 12-16-101 12:49:12 woohoo: Good idea 12-16-101 12:49:21 I'm planning on putting it all on Hobbes when I get it a bit further along anyway... I see no reason to keep it to myself:) 12-16-101 12:49:37 Only one potential problem... I'm writing all this in object rexx 12-16-101 12:49:50 WRook, does the "making and maintaining 20 pages for the search engines" you mentioned earlier have to be built-in from the beginning, or can it be added on later? 12-16-101 12:49:54 Object Rexx is fine 12-16-101 12:50:02 I know some people don't like it 'cause it breaks some old programs, but it really is a lot better for this sort of thing. 12-16-101 12:50:54 It would be based on search results. It must be done after the DB is up. It does not create any design constrains (few if any) on the DB 12-16-101 12:53:42 Doug, there can be additional challanges with the data base as you have mentioned. 12-16-101 12:53:58 Walter: I think the was a good discussion to have. 12-16-101 12:54:22 I make the motion that we move forward with the DB (even DB only ) approach. 12-16-101 12:54:25 Here's my conclusion to the matter: Searchability (search engines) is not a high priority. Given VOICE's ongoing critical shortage of manpower, maintenance is. Our current HTML staff consists of 1 person and we are struggling to find another. Doing it using HTML would require a whole bunch of HTML people. I think we should carry on using DB2, and later on add the 12-16-101 12:54:44 pages for the Search Engines if we still want them. 12-16-101 12:54:50 Any comments? 12-16-101 12:54:59 I agree 12-16-101 12:55:05 My motion still stands. 12-16-101 12:55:10 three people if you count Wilson and lalcan 12-16-101 12:55:25 Second 12-16-101 12:55:58 All in favour of the motion, type Aye. 12-16-101 12:56:03 Aye 12-16-101 12:56:05 Aye 12-16-101 12:56:13 aye 12-16-101 12:56:39 Opposed? 12-16-101 12:57:06 Motion is carried. 12-16-101 12:57:51 One final piece of New Business that shouldn't take a minute. 12-16-101 12:59:32 Anyway I'm going to table that new business until later. 12-16-101 12:59:42 R-S. Thought so. 12-16-101 13:00:07 I'm ready to entertain a motion to adjourn. 12-16-101 13:00:34 Motion. 12-16-101 13:01:05 All in favour, type Aye. 12-16-101 13:01:13 Aye 12-16-101 13:03:16 We are adjourned. 12-16-101 13:03:25 Merry Christmas! 12-16-101 13:03:39 Merry Christmas All 12-16-101 13:03:46 Merry Christmas 12-16-101 13:04:09 Remember, that our next meeting is in January, 2002. 12-16-101 13:04:40 At what time? 12-16-101 13:05:34 4:00p.m. 12-16-101 13:06:51 We're going to try the later time for a month, and see if it helps attendance. If it does, we'll probably stick with it. In any case, we'll discuss it before we make it permanent. 12-16-101 13:07:44 Merry Christmas to all 12-16-101 13:07:57 Walter - could you copy me on the changes you and Jeremy are planning for the site. It will probably affect what is done with the database. 12-16-101 13:09:14 Will do, but at this point it's only very preliminary. 12-16-101 13:10:09 The next meeting is Sunday, January 6, 2002, 4-6p. 12-16-101 13:10:31 Well, time to go. Bye everyone.