#voice--HossBot H hoss@irc.us-east.webbnet.org 2 /msg The WarpDoctor is in. #voice--VoiceBot H@ hoss@irc.us-east.webbnet.org 2 Information Bot #voice--*** Hoss is joining channel #voice *** #voice--WarpDoctor Discussion 8pmEDT #voice--***Users on #voice = Hoss Walter lynn Longstaff Sandman Projects WyldFire @Sector Rat-Salad _digi_ Ltning CatweazTP @TheSeer @madodel HossBot @VoiceBot @ptackbar RLD Chrissy #voice--<> MODE +o Hoss #voice-- MODE +o Walter #voice-- ok. I am logging. had to restart my irc client to do it. #voice-- I'm logging also. #voice-- Thanks, Abel. Actually Lynn and I were as well, so you could have waited another second or two. #voice-- Time's awasting, so I guess we should get started. #voice-- np. #voice-- Before we go much further, I'd like to decide on a time to quit. More or less. #voice-- Start at 8, end at 10. #voice-- Anyone else agree? #voice-- sounds workable to me #voice-- suits me. #voice--*** XRange is joining channel #Voice *** #voice-- If there's no objection, I move that we try to start at 8 and end at 10. #voice-- hi #voice-- I'll second that move, walter. #voice-- hiya XRange #voice-- Welcome, XRange. #voice-- All in favour, say Aye. #voice-- Aye. #voice-- Aye #voice-- Aye #voice-- Aye #voice-- hi Longstaff, lynn , Hoss , Walter #voice-- Voting on motion to start at 8 and end at 10, XRange. How do you vote? #voice-- Opposed? #voice-- aye #voice-- I think it passes. #voice-- OK, carried. #voice-- How many people actually saw my agenda? #voice--*** mandie is joining channel #voice *** #voice-- I did post it, although my battles with the Word Processors made it a bit late. :-) #voice-- When did you send it? #voice-- Hi Mandie! #voice-- "Would it be possible to see the Rexx scripts before I publish the agenda? " is my last message from you. #voice-- hiya mandie #voice-- In theory, at 11:00 this morning. #voice-- hiya Walter!! :) #voice-- Longstaff: hi :) #voice-- Lynn, I didn't mean to imply that I wouldn't publish the agenda unless I saw the scripts. #voice-- No problem, that's just my last message from you. #voice-- Walter: we can work on the problem and hopefully next week will go smoother :) #voice-- Since no-one actually saw the agenda, then I'm going to switch two items on the agenda. :-) #voice-- We can just list each item and discuss as needed.... #voice-- Walter: you have the floor #voice--*** os2r is joining channel #voice *** #voice-- what's the discussion tonight? #voice-- Warp Doctor #voice-- The next item of business deals with the logs and agendas. It's not a major item, but it's going to be a pain until we get it settled. #voice-- Abel, can you tell us where you stand regarding the publishing of agenda and the logs? #voice-- Abel? #voice-- The website is there... and so are the directories... we nned a little server adjustment.. and a bit of html.. for the log area. #voice-- Where do you want me to send the agendas? #voice-- I have the "autoreminder" almost_ working... just have a little more twekaing of some rexx. #voice-- tweaking. #voice-- better known as twexxing #voice-- all you will need to do is drop a file in one of your directories on the server. #voice-- Thanks, mandie! #voice-- You mean in the \public_html directory? #voice-- as sson as I get the "thing" working without bugs i will let you know. #voice-- probably \publ;ic_html\WD_remind #voice-- OK, Abel and I can work this out via email without taking any more IRC time. #voice-- oops. typo. #voice-- Just one thing. Where will the people here look for the agendas? #voice-- they should be sent out to the WarpDoctor mailing list #voice-- in addition to being posted on the site #voice-- on the list. on tuesday's @ 12pm. and also they will appear on the website. ( don't know exactly where yet.) #voice-- GMTA :) #voice-- Thanks! I hope we can get it right for next week. I'll post the agenda in both venues next week, until we know for sure the website is working. #voice-- the mail server crashed and burned... That's what meesed up this past weekend. #voice-- I ddin't get it fixed til tuesday. #voice-- One of my cats made a major deposit in the cat litter. Pheeww! #voice-- Thanks, Abel. #voice-- Was that on the Agenda? #voice-- No, on the litter. #voice-- :-) #voice--*** Sandman is joining channel #voice *** #voice--* WyldFire is away - bbl - [AcidJazz - Log ON] * #voice-- OK, the next item of Business is E. (Sorry, I haven't been designating them) is the biggee - Decision re: DB2 sourcing. #voice-- I'm sorry none of you got to see all the work I put into my Agenda. :-) #voice-- Well, we got through A through D without a problem. #voice-- Last week, we decided to use DB2 as our database. #voice-- As a result of discussion on the list, and some email conversations, I realized that sourcing DB2 is not a simple issue. #voice-- what's the url for warpdoctor? #voice-- I hope to partially resolve that tomight. #voice-- www.warpdoctor.org #voice-- www.warpdoctor.org #voice-- partially resolve == resolve as far as possible. #voice-- thanks #voice-- Why is it not simple? #voice-- I'm sorry if anyone feels put on the on the spot tonight, but I'd like various people to input their concrete information. #voice-- it would be simple if we were all billionaires :) #voice-- It's a $1000 item. #voice-- Mark, can you give us status of your inquiry to Brad Barclay? #voice-- madodel? #voice-- I haven't heard back from Brad as of yet. I did send a followup post today. #voice-- I also invited him to these meetings if he is interested #voice-- Thanks. We'll probably refer back to this later. #voice-- So did I. I suggested his presence at this meeting would be helpful. He said he'd try. #voice-- Do you see his handle? #voice-- Do we not have a commitment that if IBM fails to do so, VOICE will purchase it? #voice-- Lynn, that's what we are going to decide. Let's take it one step at time. OK? #voice-- Mark, do you know if Charles is here? #voice-- Walter: that's me #voice-- Hi Charles! Got your webcam working? #voice-- Walter: yeah, but i never did find a clean shirt :) #voice-- McCluski? #voice-- yes lynn - how are you #voice-- Lynn, Right. #voice-- BTW, IB has the DB2 Workgroup Edition for $858.20 #voice-- Right. #voice-- Additional use license--$223 #voice-- I am also checking with someone to see about getting DB2...but I'd rather not disclose the name #voice-- how many user in DB2 Workgroup Edition ? #voice-- Charles, Mark, you, and I have exchanged a few email messages last week. Would like to summarize your offer for the benefit of the grouup? #voice-- 1 #voice-- has it been determined how many licenses we will need? #voice-- I believe we need 2 user licenses #voice-- mandie: one for the primary web interface, and a second for maintenance that we know of.......additional web procedures may or may not need more, depending what middleware is used, and how it's configured #voice-- l #voice-- k #voice-- Joachim Benjamin of mensys did respond to this, Mandie. #voice-- Joachim Benjamins #voice-- Actually, Charles offer was restated on one of the messages in the discussion list. #voice-- Walter: thanc - briefly, i have a warp copy of db2 version 5.0 workgroup and licensing for 5 that i can donate #voice-- without going over the history of the last two years, that's about where it stands #voice-- then we should be able to get the lastest with a "upgrade" pricing? #voice-- Longstaff, does that include storage and retrieval of html and xml documents? #voice-- Thanks very much Charles! #voice-- good point lynn - specifically regarding netData and Websphere #voice-- these are not included with version 5.0 - they are in later versions #voice-- does anyone here have a current sw choice subscription? netData and Websphere are available there #voice-- That would be an ACP SWC subscription would it not? #voice-- If we could afford that, we wouldn't have any problems #voice-- Mark, Adanced Server subscription? #voice-- madodel: if you mean the paid side of the ibm sw choice site where things like netscapes and java SDKs come from, yeah #voice-- upgradt from v5 or v6 to v7.1 is $475 #voice-- upgrade that is #voice-- Probably the same to get to 7.2. #voice-- Aurora Convenience Pack - the SWC for WSeB, which I have heard requires Passport Advantage #voice-- when 7.2 comes out.....i think it's still in beta #voice-- lemme see if indelible blue list software choice #voice-- June. #voice-- Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but it sounds like we need the DB2 WorkGroup 7.1 or its EQUIVALENT. #voice-- $209.00 for two years: http://www.indelible-blue.com/catalog/product/info.cfm?part_num=4070489 #voice-- That is the Workstation SWC #voice-- You can't download server items with that subscription #voice-- Walter: yes #voice-- Walter: i'm putting forward the hypothesis that db2 5.0 plus the netData download from sw choice would be sufficient to get going, and that keeps the cost to a minimum #voice-- Are we not using WebSphere and netData currently? #voice-- We are not. #voice-- Actually Webshere and NetData are on DevCon I believe. #voice-- That's why I have them! #voice-- OK, I've been away from databases for a long time, so I'm finally going to have show my ignorance. #voice-- What is netData? #voice-- Charles? #voice-- netData is a middleware connector between a website running on a server and db2 #voice-- lemme check the url i circulated the other week #voice-- We'll discuss it later, but why do you need one? :-) #voice-- Actually could we not maintain documents in a subdirectory with netData and not use DB2? #voice-- Price for SWC for WSeB at Mensys is $1530 for 2 years - http://shop.mensys.nl/cgi-bin/db2www/mns_art2.d2w/report?catname=SWCHOICE&username=&i1=&o=&x=03:02:53 #voice-- NetDate is a full featured and easy to learn scripting language allowing you to create powerful web applications #voice-- per IBM website #voice-- can access data from the most prevalent databases in the industry: DB2 (etc) ODBC data sources as well as flat file and web registry data #voice-- http://www-4.ibm.com/software/data/net.data #voice-- Thanks, Judy! How did you get so smart? :-) #voice-- lol #voice-- It's a connection manager. #voice-- Thanks, Abel! #voice-- What are we using currently for document storage and retrieval on our WD website. #voice-- straight html. #voice-- Why not continue with it as Mark suggests until we feel more comfortable. #voice-- ? #voice-- As Mark suggests what? #voice-- Delaying a DB2 acquisition. #voice-- It isn't going to change the conversion process of text documents to html. #voice-- OK, just wanted to clarify what it was I was supposed to be suggesting #voice-- The data will remain constant, only the processing changes. #voice-- Let's look at some options and their prices. #voice-- ya need a spreadsheet almost to track all the options and their details #voice-- DB WG 7.1 - Price :? #voice--* os2r is going home....bbiab * #voice--*** os2r is leaving channel #voice *** #voice-- $858 (IB). #voice-- DB WG 7.1 - Price : $858 not including shipping #voice-- Please - no shipping at this point! #voice-- 7.1 includes netData and Websphere #voice-- Complete package. #voice-- Walter: is that no ground or no overnight air? [j/k] :) #voice-- If we wait a month, we can get 7.2. #voice-- What levels of SWC subscription do we need to be EQUIVALENT to DB2 WB 7.1? #voice-- None. #voice-- Lynn -- are you referring to time or software? #voice-- 7.1 bundles netData and Websphere along with the database itself #voice-- The DB2 WG 7.1 package contains both WebSphere and NetData. #voice-- Websphere includes the Apache server software we currently use. #voice-- One of the SWC subscriptions includes WS and ND, doesn't it? #voice-- Yes, but not DB2. #voice-- Walter: The WSeB SWC subscription does #voice-- Let me rephase. #voice-- Syncpoint. #voice-- What level of SWC includes ND, WS, and DB2 code? #voice-- None. #voice-- SWC is not needed. #voice-- db2 isn't part of sw choice at any level #voice-- What level of SWC includes ND and WS? #voice-- Walter: The WSeB SWC subscription does #voice-- Thanks! #voice-- http://techsupport.services.ibm.com/asd-bin/doc/en_us/catalog.htm#resfeatwarp lists it underReserved features for IBM OS/2 Warp Server for e-business #voice--*** Blackbird is joining channel #voice *** #voice-- But you don't need SWC if you have DB2. #voice-- What does the WSeB subscripption cost? #voice-- DB2 7.1 or better #voice-- Price for SWC for WSeB at Mensys is $1530 for 2 years - http://shop.mensys.nl/cgi-bin/db2www/mns_art2.d2w/report?catname=SWCHOICE&username=&i1=&o=&x=03:02:53 #voice-- lynn: that's my point - i can donate db2 workgroup version 5.0 - which does because that release doesn't include the www connectors #voice-- Excuse me, Charles: "which does" which does ? #voice-- sorry Walter - i better clarify that #voice-- version 5.0 of db2 requires a sw choice subscription for the middleware www connectors included free in more recent db2 releases #voice-- Thanks. I *thought* Lynn was giving me a hard time back there! :-) #voice-- No hard time. #voice-- in the "universal" db2 releases I believe #voice-- The answer is DB2 7.x. #voice--* mandie is going to do a bit of reading on this * #voice-- Let me poll the group--those who haven't given up, anway. #voice-- If we can upgrade for $500, then it gets even easier. #voice-- Judy, so am I! #voice-- 5.0 was the first version ibm described as universal, yes #voice-- Charles, does not the developer's version for free download also contain all the pieces? #voice-- There are roughly three things we can do. 1. Acquire (not necessarily purchase) DB2 WB 7.1 outright. #voice-- lynn: i believe it does as far as middleware goes, but that opens the single instance issue #voice-- Walter, can we do a clarification here? #voice-- Accept Charles' offer, upgrade the DB2, and buy the licences necessary to get the middleware. #voice-- I guess that's just two--so far. #voice-- Point of clarification. #voice-- Go ahead. #voice-- If we do not use the current website for development, we can do the entire thing with all the necessary software for free until we are ready to switch to public access. #voice-- That's development mode. #voice-- We don't have to spend dime one until everyone is assured we are ready. #voice-- That's not clarification, that's a different point completely, #voice-- Not really, since eventually we will have to acquire a license #voice-- we can put a password/protect on the site for the development directories. #voice-- The problem with the update, as I see it, is that after two years it expires. Am I wrong here? #voice-- It is not the same at the SWC subscription. No expiration date on support until 6 months prior announcement from IBM. #voice-- Walter: if you're referring to sw choice, access to the ibm website for further downloads expires after 24 months #voice-- It has nothing to do with DB2. #voice-- netData or Websphere once downloaded don't expire #voice-- (C) (your company name) (year). Portions of this code are derived from IBM #voice-- Corp. Sample Programs. (C) Copyright IBM Corp. _enter the year or years_. #voice-- All rights reserved. #voice-- If Hoss can give us restricted access for development, then we can go forward without concern for costs until we are ready. #voice-- I didn't mean DB2 had a "drop-dead" date in it. I meant that it be in the same state that the Warp client is in now. #voice-- scratch that one #voice-- I have no problem with a separate development website for the time being. #voice-- Mark suggested our use of this opportunity. This is only the condition for such use. #voice-- Lord knows I may come into money, get generous, and donate a copy. #voice-- it just can't be made available to the public... #voice-- I'm tired of this argument. From what I understand, this group has been spending the last two years on this issue. #voice-- No public access. No intended production use. #voice-- Walter: you are correct #voice-- off and on #voice-- It began with 5.0. #voice-- Restricted Access is _Not a problem from a syadmin's point of view. #voice-- You see, Walter, there is an answer. #voice--*** Sandman is joining channel #voice *** #voice-- sysadmin's even. #voice-- I think we should get the developement edition installed and get the needed ppl in place that can get this show on the road #voice-- That you've been spending two years on this issue? I already knew that! #voice-- "then" we can worry about what we will do when it comes time to go public #voice-- I make a motion that we create a development site for use with the developer's version of DB2. #voice-- The install will happen tas soon as practical after the VOICE1 HW upgrad 's are in place. #voice-- can we get some type of time frame? #voice-- Hoss: When are the drives scheduled to be installed? #voice-- a date we can shoot for? #voice-- a goal? #voice-- a committment! #voice-- There is a motion before the floor! #voice-- tomorow morning IIRc. #voice-- I second #voice-- Hmm, should we send out an announcement? #voice-- Discussion? #voice-- Saying what? #voice-- none here #voice-- No. Not yet mark. #voice-- That the voice server will be down for upgrading #voice-- can we hold the convo until this motion is addressed, plz #voice-- That effects warpdoctor.org as well as os2voice.org #voice-- Does anyone know how many licences are needed *now* and how many we have? #voice-- None and none. #voice--* Longstaff has licenses for 5 db2 users on offer for consideration * #voice-- I don't see the need for a "developers Site"...just use DB2...if you think IBM is searching all over the net for unlicensed copies ...I don't think so...when everything is in place....buy the license...if we run afoul plead ignorant and buy the licen #voice-- I disagree with Blackbird. We will always have need for a development site in order to prepare and test changes to our production site. #voice-- it is important that WarpDoctor and VOICE not even have a hint of using unlicensed software #voice-- Blackbird: it can certainly be argued that a website open to the public is still under development.......at the rate this one is going it could be for decades :) #voice-- I realize, I'm merely the here, but I personally think firing up on all thrusters using a different version #voice-- and a different type (personal vs. Workgroups) is very risky. #voice-- Actually having gone through each version of DB2 from its initial form in OS/2 EE, there's nothing risky. #voice-- How do you know you won't have undo or redo a bunch of code in order to switch out of development? #voice-- It's the same code, only a shift in use. #voice-- shift in servernames, directory structures.......stuff like that #voice-- No different from any other application. #voice-- Walter: It's really just a matter of licensing #voice-- lynn...is that the normal approach for servers now...one production site..and another to test on..?? #voice-- Are we ready for the vote? #voice-- DB2 V7.2 is in beta for Windows and linux #voice-- Blackbird, I think if you ask Hoss, he will tell you that's what he does now. #voice-- thanks #voice-- Blackbird: That is optimum. And as a matter of fact that is what VOICE does before putting anything into production #voice-- You see, there really isn't any argument here with respect to the motion. #voice-- Walter: i should abstain from voting since i'm party to the motion #voice-- ok...then my point is....use the developers edition and buy whatever is needed...WHEN it is needed #voice-- Out of order! #voice-- Are we ready for the vote? #voice-- restate the motion #voice-- I make a motion that we create a development site for use with the #voice-- developer's version of DB2. #voice-- yeh #voice-- aye #voice-- Aye #voice-- Aye #voice-- aye #voice-- All in favour, signify by saying Aye. #voice-- question on the motion - does this server exist, who is sysadmin and where is it #voice-- Hoss is there space on your machine? #voice-- sysadmin is me. #voice-- there is. #voice-- thanx Hoss - i can support that without hesitation #voice-- All in favour of the motion, say Aye! #voice-- then is that an aye? #voice-- I do believe that the motion carries.:-) #voice-- Cool. I have the DevCon Enterprise CD's that can be uploaded #voice-- aye think it does. #voice-- ;) #voice-- madodel: I've already u/l db2 to the server :) #voice-- But did you have WebShere? #voice-- ;-) #voice-- Lynn, even you should know that a motion can be ruled invalid if votes against are asked for. #voice-- Are not asked for? #voice-- Did you see it in the log? #voice-- madodel: :P #voice-- Then ask if anyone opposes. #voice-- All opposed signify by saying aye. #voice-- s/b nay #voice--* Hoss pulls out the Colt : any votes against? /me grins... I am kiding abut the Colt. * #voice-- Carried. #voice-- Whew! #voice--* _digi_ ducks...hoss is dangerous * #voice-- Now it's time for my dinner. It's been fun. #voice-- did we just make a decision! #voice-- Break out the champagne. #voice--* mandie knows that Hoss is a teddybear :) * #voice-- Let's include an announcement on the mailing list. #voice-- It was a Luger. #voice--<_digi_> break out the rye bread #voice-- hehe. #voice-- My log is going off. #voice-- I'll leave that to your more than capable hands. #voice-- The two hours is nearly up. #voice-- I move that we adjourn. #voice-- Second. #voice-- Bye. #voice-- Take the decision and run #voice-- I agree. #voice-- :-)